Episode 24
Meet Dr Andy Palmer, former COO of Nissan and CEO of Aston Martin
Imagine starting your career as a draftsman in the automotive industry in the UK, and then…….. you become the CEO of one of the most iconic car companies on the planet. Andy shares his leadership journey that takes him from the more aggressive style of leadership we saw in the industry in the early eighties, through to his experience in Japan and how he's taken the best of all of that leadership experience to become who he is today. He openly shares his vulnerabilities, what he does to deal with those vulnerabilities, how he inspires a team, how he galvanizes a team around a mission, and much more.
02:18 – Andy’s story
10:20 – Leadership style – the evolution
15:42 – Command and control
19:16 – Best team experience
21:08 – Creating psychological safety
22:48 – It’s ok to fail
26:45 – Wales
29:13 – Authentic leadership
31:20 – Napoleon vs. Wellington
36:11 – Gravitas
37:51 – Galvanizing a team behind a vision
42:02 – Keeping it real
49:27 – The daily routine
51:12 – Advice to your 25yr old self
57:16 – The legacy
Transcript
[Transcript]
Dietrich: [:[00:00:39] As she interviews some of the finest leadership minds in the quest for growth.
[:[00:01:17] In the early eighties, through to his experience in Japan, with Nissan, he spent 13 years in Japan and how he's taken the best of all of that leadership. Experienced to become who he is today. He openly shares his vulnerabilities, what he does to deal with those vulnerabilities, how he inspires a team, how he galvanizes a team around a mission.
[:[00:02:04] Andy: [00:02:04] Good. Uh, I should say good afternoon or good morning, but hello. It's nice to see you. And it's a pleasure to be on the show.
[:[00:02:14] What's your story?
[:[00:02:43] I wanted to be an auto engineer. So for me, the quickest way for a mate Z was basically to go into an apprenticeship. Um, and, and I did that at a company called automotive products. They made clutches and brakes and gearboxes four years later. Um, and with, um, with, with [00:03:00] the apprentice, uh, examinations done, I became a draftsman and then a project engineer in the advanced engineering department working on, uh, DCT gear boxes, uh, jewel clutch, um, Decided to do, um, a degree, a management degree, um, part time as I came out of my apprenticeship.
[:[00:03:43] And I sort of set upon this ambition of being, wanting to be a chief executive of an auto company at some point in my future, which drove me for the majority of those, uh, those 41 years. Um, got my degree in industrial management, uh, used it as [00:04:00] a platform. To get employed at Austin Rover or Rover or British Leyland or all of the other names they got called over the, over the period, um, in, in, in power train.
[:[00:04:37] They didn't think that, uh, a management degree was adequate. So they were good enough to put me on to a master's degree in engineering, which I did at worry university. Um, if I take you back to the, the, uh, late eighties, you'll remember that the Japanese were coming into auto and blitzing everything. Uh, there was so good [00:05:00] and.
[:[00:05:20] Um, and you know, strategy was a bit flawed as, as you, as your discover, but the, um, I had the chance to go across to Nissan in the setup of this technical sense of born out of the facility in Sunderland and helped set that technical sensor up for Europe. So, uh, after, um, eight years, I suppose I became head of the head, the chief engineer, the head engineer, um, for Nissan in Europe.
[:[00:06:18] Golden, uh, recognized he had a failing business in light commercial vehicles. And I was given two weeks notice to, uh, go and, uh, transport myself and live in Japan. Um, which is frankly in spite of the, the, uh, the speed with which it was done. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, the opportunity to experience a different culture.
[:[00:07:03] So me being promoted to a chief operating officer of the group, of course, reporting directly to Mr. Gunn. Um, it became obvious, uh, that I was never going to make the CEO job, um, just to go in and made it very clear that a future future leader would be Japanese. And the future leader in rhino would be French.
[:[00:07:50] The village next door to the one that I went to school in, uh, taking that skills back home, going with what was essentially the last push car [00:08:00] company. Uh, it's still still in private hands. That, that, that, that inspired me to go back and try. And, um, basically I had four of the, the best years I've ever had where we were able to, to recreate the portfolio, start the planning and the execution of the first, uh, SUV and take the company public.
[:[00:08:42] And I think equips me very well for the future. Um, I left astern, um, in, in, in may this year, and now start to think about a future career, uh, which is likely to be rooted in, uh, in, in transportation probably, [00:09:00] uh, with, uh, with a very heavy green bias. And as you've already seen, I've taken on the chairmanship of ops, uh, which is a bus company, uh, but with an ambition to be a, basically an V company.
[:[00:09:27] Jan: [00:09:27] That sounds very exciting. Indeed. I'm very interested to understand how your leadership style has evolved over time.
[:[00:09:59] To have a [00:10:00] Rover, it was a lot of prestige to it. Um, but I'm very interested to know how your leadership style has evolved over time. So take us back to maybe the, the days in British Leyland and compare and contrast to then coming up through Nissan and Aston and where you are today.
[:[00:10:23] Um, I hope for the better, and by the way, I hope I haven't stopped growing. And that will, that, that will continue. And I think one of the key points is, is I, I would implore to everybody don't, don't get stuck in one style, um, Rover Hostin Rover, British Leyland, all of its evolutions was a difficult environments.
[:[00:11:22] Um, And I did well in, in that environment because I must've been, uh, uh, hotheaded youth that, uh, that, that settled into it. And I could shout, and I suppose with some degrees of logic, I could survive in what, what was predominantly, uh, a culture born out of manufacturing and obviously a culture that was shaped through the relationship with the unions, which wasn't particularly great.
[:[00:12:15] It was usually the person with the most persuasive argument that was winning the argument. Um, And, and that fascinated me. And, and in two steps, you know, the first step going into a Nissan company in the United Kingdom, having its own culture, which if you want was a softer culture, um, very much more about, um, consensual, uh, discussions, very much about respecting people's expertise and very much about a very, very strong process.
[:[00:13:07] Uh, something that I take out of all of that is, is that consensus or consensus forming, uh, what is in the Japanese word is, is NEMA washy. Is really important in terms of leadership. So perhaps the difference in style, the, the, the, what I learned in Rover perhaps was about management, about giving direction.
[:[00:14:04] And I think we made much, much better decisions as a result coming back across into Austin. Um, it was, it was a step back towards the, the old, uh, British form of, of, of management. Hopefully, um, I hope that I made a, a sort of a hybrid of that British, um, creativity, uh, but singular drive, uh, but harnessed it a little more with, with the, with the collective and consensual, um, opinion making and strategy making, which I, I hope gives some legacy to towards Aston Martin.
[:[00:15:08] So it's always, as I say, there's, uh, hopefully there's, um, uh, hopefully there's life in the old dog and the old dog can learn some new tricks.
[:[00:15:32] There's a sense that if you're not operating with this sort of strength and aggression, that you may be considered weak. And I think that there are some leaders out there who know they want to lead in a much more authentic way. That's in line with who they are and, and incorporate, you know, the ideas of the people of the team and maybe show some vulnerability.
[:[00:16:19] Andy: [00:16:19] Hmm, it's tough because undoubtedly, uh, the, there is a corporate culture in every company that you're in and you need to be successful in that company.
[:[00:16:57] Um, and they often fear [00:17:00] having smart people around them. Um, what I've found is that, you know, the best way to succeed the best way to make good decisions. Eventually, most people are going to be judged by the results. You're going to get better results. If you have good people around you, and if you can employ good people around you and you use their skills, you, you engage their talents.
[:[00:17:43] Uh, and clearly if the, the sum of the parts are, are greater than one, if you get that synergistic effects, I don't, you know, I'm throwing sort of managerial words at it, but, but the reality is if you can engage your team and each member of the team is giving their [00:18:00] best. And if you're conducting the orchestra in a way that makes it sound as good as it can be, there's a pretty good chance that your results are going to be better than the bully in the next office.
[:[00:18:35] We look at purchasing, we look at sales, we look at operations and we say, and the leader says, well, you know, if everybody would just do their job the way they were supposed to, we'd be fine. Actually, no, you could be better than that with the right leadership, caring for people, understanding their needs, really harnessing their full potential.
[:[00:18:57] Andy: [00:18:57] to some extent, we all know that don't we, because [00:19:00] at some moment in our careers, almost all of us have been involved in a, in a team of some sorts, which is we really enjoy. And we've been really proud of. And, and if you haven't been in one of those teams yet, you almost certainly will be in one of them at some point.
[:[00:19:55] Uh, and it involves basically designing and developing a, a new bell [00:20:00] housing and associated installations. 12 weeks is a ridiculously short time, but by, by bringing together people from. Different parts of the organization from purchasing, from, from manufacturing, from engineering, from testing, and everybody basically being focused on, we're not going to allow this to fail.
[:[00:20:47] Jan: [00:20:47] The Google project Aristotle claims that the number one success factor for high-performance teams is psychological safety. So I'm guessing that the team you just described, [00:21:00] everybody felt. Safe to put their ideas forward to, to show up as their authentic selves, as their true selves. Could you talk a little bit about the psychological safety and how do you get that in a team?
[:[00:21:49] Else's hard work, you know, to teach team working is also about team reward, uh, and making sure that your bosses see where the real work is being done. So I think not being [00:22:00] selfish about the output, um, is, is, is very, very important. And I think, you know, security also comes from knowing that you're doing the good job.
[:[00:22:34] And in some way that of course does bring psychological safety. Um, the other thing I think, and it's the hardest thing in the world. Um, and I have to say it was somewhat easier in Japan than it was when I was working in the UK. Um, but it's okay to fail. Um, we, we in the UK seem to have a big problem with failure and it's, it sort of sits with you forever.
[:[00:23:18] And of course, absolutely keys learn from that failure. Um, the principle of Kaizen, um, I think, and to some extent poker you okay. Um, I think that's really, really valuable. So, so, uh, safe environments where maybe some of the parts of the team, uh, are allowed to fail and learn, but you know, your job is to make sure that those failures are mitigated and that the overall, the team succeeds, and to some extent, you know, developing a new car, uh, Wherever it might be, who for whoever it might be is part of that you're leading a team is developing a new car is, is about many, many, many parts and activities.
[:[00:24:15] Jan: [00:24:15] that's where this idea of psychological safety comes from, right, is that people feel safe, that they can make a mistake and that it is okay.
[:[00:24:31] Andy: [00:24:31] It's not innovative if it's not failing to be Frank, um, because you're not pushing hard enough. Um, it's the, it's the, uh, as a, as a, as a racing driver or a very bad racing driver makes myself, there's the old adage.
[:[00:24:45] Jan: [00:24:45] Yeah. Well said, well said this team that you described that had a 12 week deadline, did you burn the boats? Did you, cause it sounds like there was such a, a bone deep commitment to succeed [00:25:00] on that team. How did you, you know, somehow that team was convinced that failure was not an option, right.
[:[00:25:12] Andy: [00:25:12] No, not exactly because what would have happened if we, uh, if we'd have failed, we simply wouldn't have had a Metro diesel, um, or we wouldn't have had a Metro diesel until, until it was successful. Um, the 12 weeks was driven by the desire to, uh, reach the original job one day.
[:[00:26:11] And to some extent, it show the bosses that the original decision was the wrong one. So it didn't build it. And I do understand what you, what you mean by some, sometimes in a team. Sometimes you do simply need to burn those boats and, and give, give the team though, are the choice in this case, uh, specifically I think it was about allowing them to show their pride if you want.
[:[00:26:45] Jan: [00:26:45] You talk about patriotic pride, you know, I am extremely proud of the fact that in your last position, you made a decision to put a manufacturing plant in my home country
[:[00:26:57] Yeah. Even quite close to your [00:27:00] hometown. I believe
[:[00:27:14] Andy: [00:27:14] Um, yeah, look, um, it's been tough economically in Wales. I think it's fair to say. A lot of industry is as has left Wales.
[:[00:27:55] But right now, if you're, if you're growing up, uh, [00:28:00] in, in Wales, then you probably think King, you might even have to leave and go somewhere else in the United Kingdom to get it's. It's tough. And what I like about working with a Welsh is that they, they, I mean, they, they really did, um, knock down walls to make things happen because there was this hunger to, and this hunger times pride that plate on a DBX that says made in Wales, as opposed to saying, made in the United Kingdom.
[:[00:28:52] Jan: [00:28:52] Yeah. I think so.
[:[00:28:58] Dietrich: [00:28:58] indeed.
[:[00:29:19] Andy: [00:29:19] Authenticity, vulnerability, honesty. I mean, those are the softwares that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily hear associated with leaders, but. I think by demonstrating vulnerability, demonstrating where you have, if you want personal weaknesses, um, and looking to the team to compensate for those. Um, that's also part of the honesty and then the authenticity.
[:[00:30:15] Um, you might not, you might not get to spend all of your career in it, but you've always got that foundations make those foundations deep. So there's this, I suppose it's the left and the right hand side of the brain. But, but, but, but basically there is on one side, those psychological things or projecting, um, that vulnerability, authenticity and honesty.
[:[00:30:57] You're going to be a good leader. Now, your [00:31:00] style is going to, you're going to evolve at yourself. And, you know, I'm a great believer in, in looking at history and determining your style. If you want, by looking around one day, I'll get round to doing a PhD in, uh, in, in, uh, the history of, of, of leadership. But, um, if I can give you the analogy that I love to talk about, uh, and, and a particular battle that I've read lots about it's, it's basically, uh, the Polian facing Wellington.
[:[00:32:00] [00:32:00] Yes. You're giving yourself time to think and direct, not my style. My style is very much the style of Wellington where Wellington would go on his horse to the, to the parts of the battle where, where the, the front was waning and where it needed support miraculously, he never got hurt. Um, but, but basically he would lead from the front.
[:[00:32:49] And even sometimes you can yourself transport between the two methodologies I think is, is important. Or part of that authenticity.
[:[00:33:14] I know that that's a fear that a lot of leaders had. They're afraid to show vulnerability, but yet it's a strength.
[:[00:33:46] And I think you're a much better leader if you know where your personal vulnerability is, because at least then you can choose the team around you that compensates for it. You know, I I'm, um, [00:34:00] intrinsically quite shy. It might surprise you to hear, um, I don't much care for small talk at parties. Um, yes, I'm a great believer in management by walkabout.
[:[00:34:36] And I know when I do it, I like it. But, but I needed someone around me to give me that stimulus. The vulnerability is that the I'm telling you I'm quite a shy individual. Um, but, but, but basically, so, you know, I don't need to tell you, because when I'm talking on, on something like this, I won't come across as particularly shy, but that's only the outer shell, the inner shell is, is, is, is, is quite vulnerable in that sense.
[:[00:35:05] Jan: [00:35:05] absolutely. It is a strength, but often hard to see vulnerability as a strength.
[:[00:35:23] So. So, yes, look, I think it all, it's all part of being an honest, I mean, to be, to be a good leader, I think you need to be honest anyway, and, and being honest is also about admitting your shortfalls and admitting your mistakes. And I say, I ended up finding that by saying I'm a, I'm a, I'm a disciple of lean.
[:[00:35:49] Jan: [00:35:49] Yeah. Well said gravitas is, to me the hallmark of authentic leadership. It is that, that ultimate feeling [00:36:00] a sense that just draws people in much more than just a, just a presence. It's from a leadership perspective.
[:[00:36:16] Andy: [00:36:16] I suppose. When you reach a certain stage in your life, and some people clearly reach it a lot earlier than others, um, where you've seen what you're doing as, as, as being successful, when you successfully lead teams, when you've got a certain amount of experience, when you've learned how to deal with different cultures, when you have a certain confidence, one side, um, where you're able to communicate and project yourself, create empathy with people on another and, and where you're, where I would say that you've got solid foundations.
[:[00:37:22] And there are not that many people that achieve it, to be honest, we know the, we know the giants of our industry. Um, and there are not that many of them and every now and again, some of those giants demonstrate their own vulnerability and you find out that their foundations aren't that, that strong anyway.
[:[00:37:48] Jan: [00:37:48] Yeah. Well said, well said, talk to us about vision, vision, and purpose. We've touched on it somewhat, but how do you get a [00:38:00] team behind your vision? What are some of the actual things that you do as a CEO, as a leader, in a major organization?
[:[00:38:18] Andy: [00:38:18] that? Yeah, it's all about belief and in spirit inspiration, isn't it. Um, I often used to refer to it as, as the battle standard that the rallying around the flag, um, I mean, the end, the, the, the goal that you you've pointed the team towards needs to be very clear, needs to be simple, to articulate, um, you know, in a, in a big organization, not everybody is as well-informed, as you'd like, not everybody is, is as smart at understanding things as you'd like, not everybody has the same level of interest, but everybody will, will understand a simple message.
[:[00:39:27] And if that, that vision is, is something that you can be proud of as a team. Um, I think that's how, I mean that that's broadly how you, how, how you get there. Now, some people do that. Naturally. Some people are very, very good at talking about what they want to go and what they want to create. Um, and I'm thinking of people like, you know, Elon Musk, for example, um, some people it's not quite so natural, um, through, through my [00:40:00] career.
[:[00:40:27] Um, and I think what it does is it structures that story, whether it's, uh, whether it's, um, a transformational story or a equity story, basically it puts the bones around that, the delivery mechanism. So for, for example, in the case of Aston Martin, it was the second century plan, seven cars in seven years.
[:[00:41:17] And I discovered this methodology of Hoshin Kanri, which helped me, um, structure that for other people and helped me to explain that that vision in each of the transformations I was responsible for.
[:[00:41:45] Sometimes it's difficult to keep in touch with. What's really going on. And now you've already talked about you're very much a supporter of management by walking around you, you know, you'd, you'd like to walk around and talk to people, but there are other stakeholders, right? There [00:42:00] are suppliers. There are customers.
[:[00:42:14] Andy: [00:42:14] I suppose everybody has their own particular, their own particular style. Um, certainly the worst CA kind of transformations are the ones that only last a few weeks where someone has a very, a very good idea and goes away and has a consultants.
[:[00:42:46] Well, again, I, I talk only for myself. I always had always have had a very large first line. So the first thing I did, for example, at Aston was cut out the, [00:43:00] um, what was the COO CFO line people. So rather than having two or three people reporting to me, I think I had 12, um, A flat structure is another way of saying the same thing.
[:[00:43:32] Um, and the less filtering in an organization, uh, tends to be the more accurate understanding of what's actually going on. Um, me, I, I never ever made a decision in my office. Uh, you know, I had plenty of people over the years come in and, and lobby for a decision and lobbying, I suppose, is fine. Cause you're hearing one person's point of view, but I had a very, very strong instinct that, that, you know, every Tuesday pick a day would be [00:44:00] my management day, where my whole management team would be around the table.
[:[00:44:33] Wasn't my idea. Everybody brings their, their heart into the decision and they're more likely to execute that decision than, than just whinge and moan and try and kill it from the sidelines. So that's my way. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are many other ways, but that's my way
[:[00:45:06] Um, how do you encourage that, uh, healthy conflict in a, in a leadership team?
[:[00:45:42] But it's about looking for the quietest member in your, in your team, because quite often they're deep, um, and it's worth listening to their opinions. But, but let's make sure everybody has, um, has the opportunities to say something and obviously draw that out. Don't [00:46:00] really call anybody that comes up with something.
[:[00:46:29] It doesn't always translate into a multicultural, uh, sense, but, but, but by being, by being a little bit lighthearted and again, maybe showing a little bit of vulnerability, um, eases the tension in the room and people will tend to, uh, tend to, and of course you must never, ever break a trust if you do that, once you broken it forever.
[:[00:46:52] Jan: [00:46:52] And I think you're absolutely right when once people know that you, as a leader are not going to make a decision, [00:47:00] just purely based on the last person that left your office, that it's going to be a team decision. You're going to make these decisions together.
[:[00:47:21] Andy: [00:47:21] I think you, anyway, you end up with better decisions. So I'll give you an example cause it's close to your heart. But, um, it was a very, very, very, very, very long meeting that decided to, to put the factory factory into, into Wales.
[:[00:47:53] So people were sort of, I suppose, thinking about, well, how could this go? Uh, and again, it was [00:48:00] actually, it was actually Simon, uh, as, as a sort of naive, um, uh, marketing guy that said, well, actually I prefer the Welsh one. And suddenly you saw the, the, the, the tumble at well. So do I, I think he's good. And so the tone of the meeting changed because you allowed this case Simon to, to stand up and not fear being called an idiot because he's a marketing guy, not a, not an industrial management guy, you know, and, and it was the best decision and, and it was the best decision because it was the collective decision and the collective decision that meant it took into account.
[:[00:48:48] Jan: [00:48:48] Great. And I love that, that it was the marketing guy, you know, like you say, it wasn't the, maybe the, the ops guy or somebody that you would, would expect to have heavy, heavy influence on this decision.
[:[00:49:06] Andy: [00:49:06] Well, hopefully men that everybody, everybody felt that their, they, they, that their view was valued.
[:[00:49:24] So I love to ask this question because I'm intrigued. How do you start your day
[:[00:49:36] Well, I, um, I, I get up and shower, um, I suppose as I come downstairs, regressively I, I, I always take a quick check of my iPhone, um, just to see if there's anything majorly gone wrong overnight. Um, but interestingly, I have always had a kind of rule not to, not to take you to my bedroom, [00:50:00] so I don't sleep with my iPhone.
[:[00:50:34] I'm a petrol head. I love driving. Um, and I love the first thing in the morning that that ability to just wake myself up, enjoy the drive, perhaps listen to some music, um, and, and just get my head into, into the right space. Um, and then when I'm at work and then the day has started.
[:[00:51:03] Absolutely.
[:[00:51:12] Jan: [00:51:12] Andy, what advice would you have to your 25 year old self today in today's environment?
[:[00:51:38] Uh, you know, you need a certain amount of IQ, I suppose, but you also need a certain amount of IQ and you need a certain way. It matter work ethic. And if you really passionate about something, uh, and you work at it, you'll almost certainly succeed. Um, which causes the other side of things is, is, is, is try and find something that you can be passionate about because you're going to spend [00:52:00] the rest of your life working 10 hours a day at it.
[:[00:52:34] So my work and my, um, and in many respects, my, my, uh, hobby are, are one. Um, if I was however, giving myself some, some advice, um, it would be, do some more exercise during your life. Uh, don't, don't get as fast as you've got, um, because it's cause it, cause it slows you down towards the latter part of your career and are all sorts of nasty [00:53:00] things you can get.
[:[00:53:19] It wouldn't have made any difference, ultimately, except that I'd be a lot healthier than I am now. Um, and now I'm trying to get myself back into shape. Uh, but it would have been a lot easier if I was already in shape. So that would probably be the only advice, uh, I would have. Um, I would give myself, I think, you know, in other respects that you can't want, can't look back in regret.
[:[00:54:02] Perhaps sign a little bit, a little bit of time to make sure you're fit as well.
[:[00:54:21] Right. And, and you have to stop and, and think about. Your personal life, your health, and what you need to really position the day to get the best out of the day. And with a view long-term that you want to be healthy later on, later on in life. Not only when you're young, but later on in life. And I noticed that I would say, I think I've always.
[:[00:55:06] Right. Not explaining why. Cause you don't have to explain all the reasons why to everybody, but I CA I'm not available. And, and reaching that point where I felt comfortable saying that and making a decision for me and my health and fitness and not just automatically making every decision for work, uh, was, it was a very freeing and powering moment.
[:[00:55:46] So, so mentally it's, it's blocked out and you've got a, a reason to stand behind why it's blocked out. And to some extent, if it's in your diary, same as you might go into a meetings that you're not particularly keen to go into you go and do your [00:56:00] exercise. So, so I, I just, it's just, I should have done it more.
[:[00:56:17] Jan: [00:56:17] That's great. Now, when you say it's scheduled in the diary, you mean it's, it's in your personal schedule for the day, or do you mean an actual physical HOD diary?
[:[00:56:29] Andy: [00:56:29] No, I keep us, it says it's a software. It's um, it's a Microsoft, uh, diary, so, or outlook diary. So now I don't keep a journal. I, um, I I'm a mouse scurrying stuff away. I'm religiously file everything. So, um, over the years, I've accumulated lots of stuff in terms of what I've done.
[:[00:57:07] Jan: [00:57:07] You never know, talking about looking back. Let's talk about your legacy. How do you see your legacy?
[:[00:57:33] I think I would answer that in two ways. The way I look at my legacy, I look it in two ways. Uh, one is unfortunate enough to work on product that I love, which is the car. And I can point to cars and I've been lucky enough to, to be involved in the leadership of, of hundreds, if not close to a thousand. Um, and I can Mark my career [00:58:00] by certain key key cars.
[:[00:58:24] So I look with great affection at the mini in fact, you can find just here a little model of a, of a mini, which reminds me of, of, of, uh, of that particular job. Um, no, that was my milestone at Rover, I suppose. And I think towards this sang, uh, cars like the Qashqai cars, uh, like the Al summer, um, big one for me is the leaf, the first zero emission, uh, car of, of this generation.
[:[00:59:20] So, um, those are certainly, I think part of that, what I would call my legacy. Um, and then on the other side, what I would like to be my legacy is really about the education of apprentices, you know, leaving behind me, the guys that I've helped create apprenticeships for have helped to nurture. Um, and, and hopefully we'll go, can't go on to continue and perhaps be the future.
[:[01:00:31] So, and then at the point of 18 years old, either find a unemployed that will complete their apprenticeship or get them into the university system. The idea of being the kids that may well have been passed over and never considered it might well end up as, uh, as, as you know, in gangs or whatever. Um, at 21 years old, they could stand shoulder to shoulder with a kid that's gone through a privilege, private school and eat and education [01:01:00] and be just as good.
[:[01:01:26] Yeah. That's
[:[01:01:48] This wasn't just a stint or, you know, a couple of years, uh, experience being a leader for a short period of time, you really understand the culture in many different countries. [01:02:00] And as you said, it's evolved your leadership style. So where you go now, after this could be anywhere, I think it's very exciting and I can't wait to see what it is.
[:[01:02:15] Andy: [01:02:15] My huge pleasure. It's been great. Fun talking to you. Thank you, Andy. Thank you.
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