Meet Jim Bianchi, President of Bianchi Public Relations - on crisis communication

[Transcript]

00:03

Welcome to the Finding Gravitas podcast brought to you by Gravitas Detroit. Looking to become a more authentic leader. Finding Gravitas is the podcast for you. Gravitas is the ultimate leadership quality that draws people in. It's an irresistible force encompassing all the traits of authentic leadership. Join your podcast host Jan Griffiths that passionate rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales, entrepreneur, leadership coach, keynote speaker, one of the top 100 leading women in the automotive industry as she interviews some of the finest leadership minds in the quest for gravitas.

Jan Griffiths: 00:49

We remain in the midst of the pandemic. And we continue our series focusing on leading through the crisis. One of the key traits of authentic leadership is communications. How we communicate through this crisis is everything. It sets the tone for how we will get through the crisis together, and it sets the tone for what life will be like after the crisis. I looked to an industry veteran for insights on this subject. I went to Jim Bianchi. I met Jim about a year ago, and I remember our conversation fondly. He provided me a ton of support and encouragement when I shared with him my vision about starting the podcast. From what I know of Jim, he is an authentic leader himself. Jim Bianchi is president of Bianchi public relations, a Detroit area firm recognized nationally for its expertise in working with automotive and technology suppliers. With more than 35 years of experience on both the corporate and agency sides. Jim is a senior hands on PR professional. Jim was named the first recipient of Wayne State University's Department of Communications Alumni Achievement Award. And around Detroit, Jim is often called the dean of auto supplier PR. Please welcome Jim Bianchi.

Jim Bianchi: 02:28

Thank you, Jan. Glad, glad to be with you.

Jan Griffiths: 02:31

So Jim Bianchi, what is your story?

Jim Bianchi: 02:34

What is my story? Well, I'm a communicator. I run a public relations firm here in Detroit. And we work with automotive suppliers and mobility technology suppliers, to help them build their brand to drive awareness and build their organizations and ultimately drive sales.

Jan Griffiths: 02:52

So what's your story? Where are you from?

Jim Bianchi: 02:54

Where am I from, I actually grew up in the Detroit area. And if you've ever been for those for your listeners who have traveled to Detroit and aren't from the area, if they've ever gone by the big tire, and on I 94, I grew up there near the big tire and Allen Park, lifelong Detroit resident. I attended Wayne State University in Detroit. That's where I got my degree in journalism and public relations. And most of my career, I practice PR here in the Detroit area, and both the corporate and the agency side.

Jan Griffiths: 03:28

It's obvious that you're no stranger to the subject of communications, and PR, you've been doing it all your life, which makes you the perfect guest to have on the show right now. To help our audience and our leaders out there who are trying to figure out this thing called communication in a time of crisis. We are right in the middle of a pandemic. We know that communication is one of the most important traits of authentic leadership. And it's one of those things that we all know it, but what exactly does it mean? And let's kick this off by sharing one of my favorite quotes of all time, it's George Bernard Shaw. And he says, the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. And isn't that so true?

Jim Bianchi: 04:25

That's a great quote. That really is a great quote, in times of crisis. Communication is so critically important because it helps to bridge the emotional turmoil that people are going through. And as a leader, leader really needs to communicate with its audiences with its employees, with its customers with its suppliers and with other stakeholders. And first of all, to calm them down to encourage them to be calm to avoid the panic.

Jan Griffiths: 05:03

And communication is much more than the spoken word

Jim Bianchi: 05:07

It is. And that's why they're seeing the work from home scenario kind of forcing people to, to use video conferencing and a lot of people that are not comfortable with it. But there's so much that comes through the visual part of video conferencing, that you miss the subtle nuances, the body language, the expressions, I noticed something the other day with people starting to wear the face masks now that you can still tell when somebody is smiling when they're wearing a face mask, and I've heard that you can hear it in their voice as well. But this is this shows how important that visual aspect is. You're communicating that emotion through the visual means as well as through your verbal means.

Jan Griffiths: 05:57

Yes, I saw a statistic that said that communication is 55% body language and 38% tone of voice.

Jim Bianchi: 06:08

I definitely can believe that. And in times like these, we're in a crisis. We're very emotionally raw, there's a lot of anxiety. People are worried they're worried about their family, they're worried about their parents, their children, their co workers, they're worried about their job, they're worried about making health care payment, they're worried about running out of toilet paper. I mean, I'm chuckling about it. But it's there are a lot of worries that these people are dealing with. And then you know, that's compounded by their employer and the leadership or lack of leadership, they're getting communication they're getting from their leadership, in terms of where's the company going? What's going on with the company? What's the direction? What's my role in that? What does this mean to me? What's the impact going to be on me? Where are we headed? What is the road ahead look like? These are all questions that nobody has all of the answers long term. mean, we're in a situation that I don't think anybody in this lifetime has seen before. But they've been through other crises. And they, and they have a short term plan, you know, they have a horizon, and they need to keep sharing that with their constituents, their stakeholders, either internal or external, to help calm them down and help lead them through, help them participate and engage. So they can participate in taking the necessary actions that help the company, proceed through this through the storm, as it were, and get through to the other side. But they, they really, this is a time for leadership, to really, to reinforce their values and reinforce their vision, and give people something to hang their hope on.

Jan Griffiths: 08:02

Yeah, people need to feel that emotional and psychological safety now, more than ever before. And I think that, you know, coming from the corporate world, I know that there's this tendency to want to have all the information before you start communicating. But this is a situation where you're, you're not going to have all the information, things are going to keep changing constantly. So what would you recommend to a leader of a business out there when faced with this kind of situation? How soon how quickly? Should they be out there communicating?

Jim Bianchi: 08:35

You need to be communicating, often and frequently? And now, I mean, on a daily basis, if that's possible, and I know. And I know that sounds very extreme. First of all, you need to show empathy to those people as human beings. Let's talk about how are they feeling emotionally? And are they safe, and let's put make sure their, their welfare is taken care of. And we're addressing their worries. And then we start communicating about this vision, drawing from our mutual backgrounds in the automotive supply sector. We've got global automotive suppliers, dealing in different regions in the world that are at different stages of this pandemic. And on China, they're starting to return back to automotive production. Now, people are starting to go back to work in a different way than before. But still, they're ramping up here in the States and in different states. Within the United States, it's different, and in Europe, different countries have different situations. You also have facilities that serve multiple industries. So they may be producing medical products. So they're running now, on the next line over there, they produce automotive components. So those those lines aren't running. So there, there is no single answer that works for your entire organization, which makes it very uncommon. trouble for corporate communicators, because as you said, they want to wait until they have all the information. What's kind of the one of the rules in crisis communications is to get out there fast with what you know, Don't speculate on what you don't know. And then tell them when you're going to update them. Next, give them some regular intervals of information. Now, we're, as we talked to clients, we're seeing that early on, some of them are using their intranet or their corporate portals, to update employees on a daily basis. Some of them are use also using regional blogs that are updated on a daily basis with regional information on the plant level, they're putting out information to these people on a daily basis. And the CEOs, the very top leaders, those people should be communicating at least weekly, even if they don't have a lot of new information. But they're going to have some new information, because things are changing so rapidly, I mean, there is no map to this road we're on because there there are tectonic shifts in the highway, as we're driving down it, it keeps moving, the scenery keeps changing. So and the roadway itself keeps changing. So it's a it's a very difficult time. But it's important to keep communicating to those employees and to those stakeholders, and keep showing them what the path forward is, and engaging them and reminding them on how they can help and reinforcing the company's again, the company's values, and the company's vision.

Jan Griffiths: 11:38

You know, Jim, looking back on my corporate career, and if I want to go back into the corporate world, which I have no intention of doing so. But if I were to one thing that I've learned since I left the corporate world is the power of video and audio. Obviously, I produce videos and I produce a podcast. And if I were to go back to the corporate world, now, I would do that, every single time, I would either be on a video, I'd have an iPhone in front of me. And I would be recording a message particularly in a time of crisis, or I would have an audit, I'd have an audio a podcast or a recording or something going out. And often, you know, with a corporate environment, you've got a firewall problem, or you don't have the technology or they can't push that video out to so many people, I would put it on a YouTube channel, I would have a link and boom, it would be done. You know, I would have it out there. Because it's just such a powerful way to communicate. And I think that different people take information in different ways, right? Some people are more visual. Some people like the audio and some people like to see the written word. So would you would you say to focus on one or the other or to hit all three?

Jim Bianchi: 12:50

I think you need to hit all three. Video is very powerful. And let's face it, with the rise of technology, people are looking at video they're consuming video every day, on their mobile devices, they're looking at on their iPads, on their computers on their laptops, the you know, they're watching videos on Facebook, their kids are making videos, you know, the grade school kids are making their own videos. So it's not that difficult to do it, it doesn't need to be super polished, or super highly produced professional video. Because what we're going for here is the basics. We're going for the emotion, right, we're going for the the the sincerity and the authenticity that comes through when you see somebody who's speaking off the cuff. And there are a lot of CEOs that are not comfortable with that, you know, they want somebody to tightly scripted. This is not really a scriptable kind of situation, that the discussions right now really need to come from the heart and great leaders will see that, that it's all right now it's all about empathy. Initially, let's get people through the stage where they're not as emotionally raw, and lead them out of that show empathy first, and then show them the leadership show the direction, you know, show the confidence, you know, give people hope. People are looking for direction. We're on a ship in a storm. And we're looking for the captain to pilot us through you know, I heard somebody use the the old biblical reference of the we are sheep without a shepherd. That's how employees feel. And so they want somebody to lead them that yes, you know, there might be some difficulty in getting there. But we've been through difficult times before and that's what that's what a true leader really needs to communicate and how people can get be involved and give them some glimpse about what the future will look like.

Jan Griffiths: 14:49

And you use the magic word, you said it's authenticity and this is when authentic leadership will really shine and it'll be much easier for an authentic leader to step into this role to lead during this crisis than somebody who perhaps is trying to fit a corporate mold because they'll be encumbered with all of this, I need to, you know, look this way, act this way, use this script. And this is not a time for that this is a time to walk away from the traditional corporate mold and playbook, be yourself step up and, and lead and connect people and like you say, give them hope, give them security, but also give them a sense of calm that you've got this. And, and that can be tough, too, because I think there's a, there's an opportunity to show some vulnerability to show your human side for sure. But by the same token, you have to show that you are the leader, and you have the strength and vision to move forward. You might not know all the steps, but you know that there's an end to this. And we're all going to get through it together. And there's, you know, there's different people display that in different ways. So let's take a look at perhaps two examples that we see playing out in front of us right now in the media. And this is certainly, you know, not a political discussion. But in terms of leadership presence. So compare and contrast, if you will, Trump, in his daily briefings, and also Andrew Cuomo, the Governor of New York, could you compare and contrast their communication styles? What do you see playing out there?

Jim Bianchi: 16:31

That's a great comparison, because they're, they really have different leadership styles. Obviously. On the one hand, you have a president, and again, trying to keep politics out of this. You have a president who, who maybe lacks some credibility, because his master, judging is not consistent. One day, it's black one day, it's white. One, the next day, it's green. There's criticism, there is negativism. You literally if you watch his press briefings early on, you would see his staff behind them literally rolling their eyes while he was talking. I mean, what kind of signal does that send in terms of credibility? Is there trust there in that messaging? Probably not. On the other hand, Governor Cuomo, seem to be very factual, seem to be very humane, has a very consistent message. And he talks tough. Well, this is what we've got to do. These are the rules we have to follow. This is how you can help. And then he kept reminding people, we're going to get through this, but it's not going to be pretty, and it's not going to be easy. But so there was a consistency of message that really evokes trust and loyalty. And I think all leaders need that. Which leadership style, do you trust the most? One with a consistent message, where it's, it seems to be factual, honest, candid. Or the other one that that is, seems to change with the direction of the wind.

Jan Griffiths: 18:18

Because you want to give hope, right? So you want that you have to paint a positive picture. But that doesn't mean that you sugarcoat it so much that you lose your audience, right? There's, like you said, there's got to be fact based, but you also have to paint this picture of we're going to get through this together. And I think that's, you know, that's an area where some people struggle, because if you sugarcoat it too much, people just won't believe you and they won't buy into it.

Jim Bianchi: 18:46

Yeah, the traditional logic in crisis communication is, first, tell the facts that you know, as you know that and avoid speculating, and then talk about what you're going to do to deal with those facts, what you're going to do to correct the situation, or protect the safety of the people involved, or whatever kind of crisis that is, and then then we're going to do to get through this survive. So it's very important to stay factual, but also to stay human. There is no time for a leader to shine more than in a time of crisis, right? It's easy to be, it's easy to be a leader when things are great. And profits are up. You've got your record sales and record profits and you're expanding globally. It's easy to be a leader that it's a lot more difficult to be a leader during the tough times. You need to provide people with accurate information. One of the things I was gonna say is the only thing where people want to hear from you. They want to hear what your views. Your perspective is on what's happening. And the only thing that's worse than bad news is having no news. If there are going to be layoffs, that's fine. Tell them, they can deal with that. It's the fear of the unknown. That really paralyzes people and organizations. And organizations are just groups of people. So you have all this emotional turmoil that literally helps to paralyze a company. So to get those people engaged again, you've got to remove that fear of the unknown. So we tell them what you know, tell them what you think, you know, where, where you're going, what your plan is. And it might not be the plan for the next six months, nobody knows what's going to happen six months from now, what your short term plan is, and that you'll probably make course corrections along the way. Because this is a constantly changing environment, at least you give them some certainty about some things, so that that helps down, make decisions about their own involvement about their own life.

Jan Griffiths: 21:09

Yeah, yeah. Because the whole idea now, but leading through crisis is that not only do you keep your people with you through this very difficult time, but that they will be there after.

Jim Bianchi: 21:20

Exactly, there's such a competition for talent, not only in our industry, but in many industries, companies, talent management is becoming an important and strategic tool for corporations for the future, and to lose that kind of talent now, because you didn't engage those people. You didn't communicate with them. It's just, it's, it's almost a sin. It's a corporate sin. Those those people that get through this with you that feel loyal enough to get through the hardship, these people are going to be bonded to the organization and to their leaders, in a really strong way, as all survivors are people that survive a certain situation, do they think there's a special bond there, these people are going to be more loyal, more dedicated than ever, if they feel like their leaders have helped them to make that happen.

Jan Griffiths: 22:21

It's the shared struggle, Nick Norris, the navy seal that we had on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, talked about Hell Week. And this is Hell Week, right on, it's longer than that. But it's a shared struggle that we're all going through together. And that's what great leaders will will find this to be an exhilarating experience and rise up to the challenge, and others will not. So let's talk a little bit about stakeholders, communicating to customers. Any specific guidance on communication to customers, obviously, each organization is different with a different customer base.

Jim Bianchi: 23:02

Customers really need to know from these leaders, what they're doing in terms of production and services and, and how they're serving. And I think most corporations were on the mark early on, with communications that talked about, here's what we're doing to protect our staff, here's what we're doing to continue to serve your needs. Here's where we're going. Again, in the auto supplier community, the automakers are in constant contact with their suppliers because they do a lot of work on just in time production. And so there are still some lines that are being run on an emergency basis. And also, we have automakers now that are making personal protection equipment for medical purposes, that are making products for emergency services that are making ventilators and they're going to suppliers who've never made a ventilator part before and helping them get their supply chain because no manufacturing company does it on its own. It has a supply chain. And one weak link in that supply chain can shut a customer down. So the customers are communicating frequently with the with the suppliers and the suppliers with the customers as well.

Jan Griffiths: 24:18

What about the suppliers? You know, I obviously I'm no stranger to cash management with the supply base. And every company right now is taking a hard look at conserving cash. What about those relationships communications out to that supply base.

Jim Bianchi: 24:35

Those are going to be critical because as the automakers they're starting to talk about ramping up as they ramp up. The supply chain has to be out ahead of them. There probably three or four levels to any supply chain. Each of those levels is going to need a little bit of a cushion to get their production back up to get their supplies in their materials and in the in the start to fill up their pipeline throughout the supply chain, they may be ramping up a week, a week and a half, maybe even two weeks prior to the automaker, so it's critical that that entire supply chain communicates what they're doing, what they think their needs might be. And oh, yeah, let's share best practices in terms of how do we change the layout of our plant so that people are safe? Because they're going to maintain the minimum six foot distance? And how do we slow down production lines, so that we can accommodate that spacing, we can accommodate time for people to disinfect things, to disinfect themselves, for workstations to be cleaned in between shifts, because you have a lot of products that are moving down the line that a lot of people are touching. And so you don't want to start a reinfection process, even time for their temperatures to be scanned, before they're allowed to enter into the workplace. So there, there are going to be some new work rules. And those are all going to Yeah, and you indicated to employees, and those don't need to be reinvented at each employer, they can probably be shared throughout the industry by a couple of forward thinking manufacturers.

Jan Griffiths: 26:26

Yeah, I see that Lear is out there with a playbook right now. For the startup for starting back to work. I haven't read it yet. But I fully intend to in the next couple of days. And I think it's great to see, you know, a supplier actually out there, taking the lead, doing something and having the guts to be transparent about it and putting it out there.

Jim Bianchi: 26:48

Yeah, I'm sure there are other companies doing the same thing, and maybe aren't so vocal about it externally. And I'm sure there are some trade organizations within the automotive community that are doing the same thing that looking at our best practices, and how do we share these without reinventing the wheel? Because it just adds a lot of waste to the system?

Jan Griffiths: 27:06

Jim, you've been in this a long time, you've been through many different situations. Of course, we none of us have been through a pandemic before. But you've seen different crisis situations. And you've seen different companies and different leaders respond. What are some of the areas that come through that you see, typically need improvement, overall?

Jim Bianchi: 27:28

I think the first one, Jan is really for leadership to speak early and often to get out in front of it, share what you know, keep sharing what you know, and keep reassuring people, people aren't always using the new tools that are available to them. And we are faced with a situation some companies are having a very difficult time reaching employees that are no longer at the work place. People that are factory workers that are they're staying at home, you know, how do we reach them? Not all of them have email access. And so how do you keep communicating with them? Some companies are using Robo tax, some companies are using emails, websites, videos, some are actually mailing snail mail letters home, which this day and age seems to be a little archaic, but because we we've never thought through this situation about reaching employees when they weren't at the workplace. So a lot of some companies are struggling with that. I think that's kind of a weakness, and also an opportunity for improvement. When we're through all this, there will be some lessons learned about what did we do wrong? What did we do right? What can we do better next time, there are lots of technologies that could be available and should be investigated and to be embraced so that they can be put into action when these kinds of situations arise again. Yeah. The other weakness that we can talk a little bit about is talking with your suppliers and keeping them aware of where you are, and what you need and how they can help you and how you can get through this together.

Jan Griffiths: 29:08

Yeah, that's a good point. And that's certainly something that I've learned in my career in supply chain and managing cash situations. It's not a it's not an either or it's not a, you're going to get paid, you're not going to get paid, right. This is about the relationship. And it's about talking to the supplier. And this is an opportunity where you can actually strengthen those supplier relationships as hard as that might seem when you're in a cash crunch. But you can and I've done it many, many times where you come out the other end with a much stronger relationship but it's all about you as the leader, how you show up in this situation, and open up that communication and be very open and honest and transparent with all the stakeholders, particularly the supply base, and it's amazing what people will do, I mean, they will help you, if you, if you have credibility, if you have integrity, if you follow through with what you say you're going to do, then people will stay with you. It's when you try when you either don't communicate anything, or you try and communicate a message, that's just not true. That's the worst thing you could ever do. That's when things fall apart. So I think, particularly when it comes to the supply base, same, same rules apply, right? Get in front of it, communicate what you know, as often as you can.

Jim Bianchi: 30:33

It's really important because again, in the automotive business, one supplier, stopping production of one component for your vehicle can shut an automakers production. Now, yes, you don't want that to happen, obviously. And honestly, the supplier doesn't want that to happen, either. These are very difficult conversations to have, especially when you're in the crush of this daily business. And you're juggling global supply chains and global facilities that are all facing different scenarios, in terms of where they are in the pandemic, and what they're dealing with how bad the outbreak is in their area with the materials of like, what the demand is like, what customers are looking for, they're juggling all of this. And if you have a very difficult conversation to have with your supplier, human nature's, you're going to kind of want to put that off all Well, I just didn't have time to do it, send them an email.

Jan Griffiths: 31:32

Yeah, wrong, wrong approach.

Jim Bianchi: 31:35

This is really a time for a supplier or an automaker to really talk. And automakers often talk about wanting to be the customer of choice, so that the supplier will bring them their very best ideas, their very best innovations, their very best pricing. And suppliers want to do that they want their customers to succeed, right? They want to have long term partners. So they're willing to work with you to do that, to make you successful, but you need to work with them. And you need to get them on board with you. It's about being transparent and being honest, and being accountable, telling them what you're going to do and then doing what you said you were going to do.

Jan Griffiths: 32:18

That's right. And you're so right, though, Jim, it's you can't avoid having that conversation. You've got to pick up the phone and have that conversation as difficult as it might be. And some people will be more receptive to it than others. And what I found overall, is 99% of people are open to having the discussion because they respect the fact that you took the time to have the conversation and you didn't just send him an email and say, Well, you know, this isn't where are you? They're not paying you or not paying you or we're paying you 50% Or, or something that you at least gave gave them the opportunity to have some back and forth conversation.

Jim Bianchi: 32:55

Well, you know, and you see this situation here, or do you? Do you want the email that starts off with their valued supplier? Whenever you get that email, you know what's coming next.

Jan Griffiths: 33:06

Something bad's coming yeah.

Jim Bianchi: 33:09

It's a unilateral decision, to extend payment terms to lower price to whatever. It's never a good thing, when you could accomplish the same objective. Yet, have your supplier feeling good about it? If you would just have the conversation and say, Hey, listen, here's where we are. We need your help. Can I count on you, with your palms up? Can I count on you? Again, those are difficult decisions, but they're very difficult conversations, but they can build some terrific relationships.

Jan Griffiths: 33:46

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And this is an opportunity to build and deepen and strengthen relationships throughout the entire spectrum of the business world, both internally with your employees, with your customers and with your suppliers. Now we're starting to talk about what do we do when we come out of this? So any advice to our audience right now? I mean, same rules apply to communication, I'm assuming but anything specific, related to coming out of this crisis?

Jim Bianchi: 34:27

I think as you come out, crisis, one of the things I didn't mention earlier, but maybe as we're going through this crisis, and before we come out of it, is to celebrate the successes. Let's share the success stories. Let's talk about where somebody, some plant worker did something heroic, to come up with a 3d printed design for a new n 95 mask or protective face shield, or an HR manager at a plant was able to find some personal protective equipment that they could donate to a local hospital, people want to know that they're part of something bigger than they are, and that they're doing good in the community and in the industry. So sharing those success stories will be helpful. I think recognizing those partners who are sharing the sacrifice with you, whether there are suppliers, whether they're retirees, whether they're employees, customers, whoever is is participating, recognizing those people. Ultimately, business is about relationships, it all comes down to relationships, and to people, you don't have a good relationship. Without good communication. And coming out of this, I think it's more the same. In a situation like this, you cannot over communicate as a leader, just about the time that you're tired of communicating the same message, you're just starting to break through all these emotional and psychological barriers, people on the on the receiving end are just starting to get it, you know, and that's the time there is to keep communicating with them. We have leaders that do management by walking around, I think in a situation well said, it's also management by talking around by doing skip levels by getting out there and time communicating. If you have to use video conference, or phone calls, or however you want to do it, to talk to those people and find out what their concerns are, show some empathy, it's going to help you answer the questions that are deep within them. And sometimes it's hard for people at the sea level, to think back to what it was like when they were a college student on the line and what their concerns and what their problems were. If you can put yourself in that place and anticipate those questions, find out what those questions are and answer those questions. You can really engage these people and then keep them engaged. As we move through this, show them milestones you know about the progress that we're making, and celebrate the wins. Everybody in the world is facing the same scenario right now. The fact that there are shutdowns or layoffs, or pay cuts or whatever bad things that are happening, are happening. It's not a reflection on any leaders, management ability. This is all externally control. You have very little control in this situation. The only thing you can control is how you react to it. And you so you want to react to it in a way that helps your employees react to it in the same way, with calmness with confidence. With some resoluteness that we're going to get through this, we're going to make leaders and business owners, they have all the same worries and concerns. They're worried about their families, they're worried about their employees, they're worried about keeping their companies going and making payroll and maintaining their cash reserves and keeping the company going. But they can't let that impact them they have to rise above that. One of the things that is a great exercise for this is for them to stop and every morning and ask themselves a year from now, how do I want people to remember how I acted during this crisis? Yeah, exactly. What did my Angelou say people won't remember what you said. People won't remember what you did. People will remember how you make them feel how you made them feel. That's the important part right now.

Jan Griffiths: 38:57

And that is that's a beautiful way to end this podcast, Jim, because you're exactly right. People will remember how you made them feel whether it's employees, customers or suppliers, and that is very much dependent on how you communicate. So with that, Jim Bianchi, thank you very much for your time today.

Jim Bianchi: 39:23

Thank you Jan. It's been a lot of fun.

39:28

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