Next-Gen Automotive Leadership with Volkswagen CSMO Andrew Savvas

[Transcript]

Jan Griffiths: 00:08

Welcome to the automotive leaders podcast, where we help you prepare for the future by sharing stories, insights, and skills from leading voices in the automotive world with a mission to transform this industry together. I'm your host, Jan Griffiths, that passionate, rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales, with over 35 years of experience in our beloved auto industry, and a commitment to empowering fellow leaders to be their best authentic selves. Stay true to yourself, be you and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership. Let's dive in.

Jan Griffiths: 00:58

Before I introduce my next guest, I want to give you the backstory. I would say 90% of the time, I know the people that I'm interviewing, I either have met them somewhere along the way, or I know somebody who knows them really well. Because for me, this podcast is all about authentic leadership. I can't have somebody a guest on this podcast, who is not an authentic leader. And I'm very careful when people want to recommend a guest to come on the podcast if I don't know them. So, this next guest I have never met before. I have never spoken to them. But somebody on their team, a senior leader on their team came to me and said, you must interview this guy. You have to talk to him about leadership. He is one of the finest examples of authentic leadership in the automotive industry. And so, I was intrigued to say the least I wanted to know more. And then, I found out that this senior leader works for Volkswagen. And I hesitated I thought, wait a minute, I know Volkswagen to be the hallmark of command and control. I'm not sure this is going to be the right guest. But I was convinced by the strong recommendation from somebody who worked directly for him. And so, today you are going to meet Andrew Savvas. He is the chief sales and marketing officer for Volkswagen, North America. And our discussion is going to open up authentic leadership in a way that might surprise you. We're gonna go deep into the subject of vulnerability. We're going to talk about specific examples, and how to practice vulnerability and see it as a leadership strength. You'll hear his commitment, his bone deep commitment to diversity. Andrew Savvas, welcome to the show.

Andrew Savvas: 03:08

Thanks, Jan. Good to be here.

Jan Griffiths: 03:10

Andrew, what a career you have had. Let's go back to the beginning. How on earth did you get into the automotive industry?

Andrew Savvas: 03:20

Good question. I never grew up dreaming about cars. That's it’s the first confession I've needed to make. I think it's important for me to share with you where it all started. I started working in my parents’ fish market. And lessons I've learned during that period, stay with me today. And so, my parents migrated to Australia. And they had me working in the fish market with them from a very young age. And that taught me a lot about working in retail and being able to communicate with customers, people with you don't know. And the ability to engage with, with customers, how they react to certain things you say or what they want. And really understanding and listening to their needs was a lesson that stays with me forever. But mom and dad had no aspirations for their son to work in the fish market with them. They're still working seven days a week today, and they're in their 60s. And so, for us, you know, learning hard work, and understanding what grit and determination was to come to a country where you don't know how to speak the language and you need to make a life for your family was a lesson that stayed with me forever and was also the determination for me to use those strong foundations to do something else in my life. And my parents gave me that opportunity and, off I went and did an accounting degree. It was a struggle, doing accounting. It wasn't my forte, but it was going to give me a better career than mom and dad in the fish shop and something I struggled with, first two years of school was a battle at college or university in Sydney. And until I met my now wife at university, I didn't get my act into gear and it took me five years to do a three-year degree and I finally got there. And I needed a job Jan, I needed a job when I got a job as an accountant at Qantas. And I wasn't liking that job very much, and in accounting, but I thought maybe it was just the wrong company, what a great company, but wasn't the job for me. And I applied for a job at Toyota. And they gave me a management accountant role at Toyota in 2001. And I gave it a go, and 12 months into that job, I realized, maybe it's accounting, that's not for me. And I used to see all the fun, the sales and marketing teams were having it Toyota, and it was a wonderful organization to learn the business. And there was a gentleman there who was a director who came up to me and said, you'd be better in sales and marketing. I believe in your ability, and I want to give you a go. And the energy that created for me, as an aspiring young person wanting to grow his career in business and become you know, this big shot in the corporate world, having someone believe in me made a big impression on me. And I stayed at Toyota and worked my way through the organization from accounting to network development, and then into sales. And going through all this journey with Toyota was a wonderful experience. And they were very big on promotions and rotations within the organization, providing you with a broad spectrum and base for your learning and development. And then, Volkswagen came knocking and I thought, let's give this a go. And very different and culturally, very different in terms of the way they build cars and the way they interact with their customers. And I wanted to give that a go. And Volkswagen was a brand that I was passionate about growing up and seeing GT eyes on the road and was something that was very enticing for me. And I'd give that a go. And they are headed up sales in Australia, with Volkswagen and then move to the Middle East as the head of the brand in the Middle East. And then the opportunity to go to the UK which, which was a wonderful opportunity, going to a much larger national sales company for Volkswagen, for me was an opportunity too good to give up. And from there, the US came knocking three years later, and here I am today in North America.

Jan Griffiths: 07:05

I can totally relate to that story, the fish market story. As you know, I grew up on a farm in Wales. And I never thought I would end up in the automotive industry. I didn't know the word automotive. I didn't know what it meant until I started working for a tier one supplier for BorgWarner. But then when I got in there, it was in my blood. I sense there's much the same in you. We've got this passion for this industry.

Jan Griffiths: 07:30

Hey, yeah well and a massive transformation that we're seeing right now with not only the product lineup but in leadership but let's talk about the product for a moment. And I have to, I'm going to be totally honest with you and you're going to love this. I am a VW person. And now, all my friends in automotive that worked for the other brands are going to, "go oh, you what?!"

Andrew Savvas: 07:30

Spot in Jan. I think, as an industry, I think we could do a better job promoting to young university grads or coming out of how wonderful this industry is. This isn't just about selling cars. The diversity and the diversity of opportunity in this industry is enormous from after sales to finance and insurance, you can do marketing, you can do PR and that's just energizing, and I really struggle to think of an industry that provides so much opportunity from than any other industry in terms of opportunity to learn in very diverse fields. And that's energizing and I think my career is testament to that been going from a bean counter to working in network development and dealer contracts and then working in sales and trying to work out how to sell cars rather than finance and then from there running a market and running three different markets. The opportunity is endless. If you want to pursue it, this industry is enormous. It's global and it's changing so fast and if you can't be energized by this industry, I'm not sure what will energize you. It's awesome, really cool.

Andrew Savvas: 08:57

I won't tell them Jan, it's between us.

Jan Griffiths: 09:01

But I have to be honest, I needed a little SUV just over a year ago. And I didn't want to spend a ton of money. I didn't want a luxury SUV. I just wanted something simple. And I got the Taos and I bloody love it. That's a great little car.

Andrew Savvas: 09:17

That's excellent to hear. That's good to hear. And that's one of our one of our biggest opportunities here in the US is to really make Volkswagen salient in the US market. At the moment our market share is about two and a half percent depending on the month given the supply situation. But we really have the opportunity with Volkswagen to get more on the road and get more bums in seats so people can experience what it's like to have a Volkswagen because it's not a US brand. It is a global brand. And we need more people to experience it here in the US to understand what it's like to own and drive a Volkswagen. And that's one of the reasons why I'm here.

Jan Griffiths: 09:54

I love my little Taos and I will be taking it, once the lease is up, I will be test driving the ID 4. Because the ID 4, I would have done that last time. It just wasn't available at the time. But it seems like that's gaining a tremendous amount of traction.

Andrew Savvas: 10:08

It is. And it's coming now with what our own production plant in Tennessee in Chattanooga, and volume is increasing and the opportunity for us rather than importing the current building, than building here in the States, will give us a lot more volume opportunity and give people a lot more, bigger chance to experience a Volkswagen.

Jan Griffiths: 10:25

Yeah. As you and I both know, all the OEMs are very proud to trot out their latest lineup of EVs. We're all going from ICE to BEV, and everyone is out of this and here they are, look at what we got, we're launching more, right? And that's great. But my concern is this, quite frankly, the product transformation is happening. Industry transformation is happening. But what about the leadership model transformation that has to go along with that? I interviewed Stephen Covey on the podcast. And one of the things he says is, you cannot win in the marketplace without also winning in the workplace.

Andrew Savvas: 11:13

That's so true, Jan. It's absolutely true. And as we transform, we have to listen more. And our role as leaders is to really get a broader perspective on not just the industry, but what our consumers are thinking and how they behave. And the tradition when you're transforming an industry like the automotive industry and moving from internal combustion engines to EVs. Customers are coming in more educated than before. And we're transforming to a more digital environment. And the traditional ways of doing things in our industry are changing rapidly. And for us to adapt quickly, we have to listen more and bring in a broader perspective into our industry. And as an industry, we need to move a lot faster. And we are seeing some parts of industry moving faster than others. And for us, diversity of views, a broader spectrum of what's happening in the industry is super important. And getting that is key and grabbing that talent from different industries and looking at talent from a competency based rather than experience based. And I think we need to get better at that as an industry is really focused on competencies, rather than experience. So that's why we're not seeing the diversity sometimes in some parts of this industry.

Jan Griffiths: 12:32

It's one thing to bring in the right people. And I love diversity of course, right. But you bring them into a command-and-control environment, you bring in Gen Z into command and control and they're not going to stay. And my experience has been, German OEMs typically, they're the hallmark of command and control. It's all about compliance. I interviewed Stefan Krause, who formerly of BMW and then worked for Deutsche Bank, and now is at the forefront of EV companies started up an EV company in California. So, a nice broad spectrum of experience. And in his view, he said, you know, we're really moving from compliance to conviction. So, a leadership model where it's command and control, and it's all about compliance to more about conviction and giving people more freedom. How does that work with you at VW?

Andrew Savvas: 13:30

So, with me, personally, that's always been my style of leadership, Jan, to be honest with you on our work for a German organization, a wonderful brand. But for me, personally, it's all about the intrinsic drivers of my team and making sure they're intrinsically driven, and creating that sense of purpose, and giving them that opportunity to, to make decisions they're paid to make. And rather than having that command and control, I've never had that leadership style. Personally, I worked out quite early on, I wasn't gonna be the smartest person in the room. I didn't have all the answers. And you know when I first joined the industry, Jan, I would see this business, not just at Volkswagen, but the whole industry run by numbers. We missed our target this month, what are we going to do? And I know more numbers than you do. And I'm the smartest person in the room and what's your what's your market share? And what's your gross margin? And what's your contribution margin? If you didn't know that answer, you weren't cut out for this industry. And I knew that wasn't going to be my strength. So, for me personally, I had to really work hard at knowing, and being self-aware of what I could do within my own skill set. And that was allowing people the space to do their job and guiding them. And really being a vulnerable leader to allow them to really have their opinions shared with me that means saying, I don't know how we solve this problem. How can you help me solve this problem allows people to really have that conviction to execute because it gives them the confidence and the strength that they leader with a manager needs their help. And that energizes people a lot more than having someone walk into my office and me asking them what their market share was and what they miss target and how they're going to grow their market share and rectify that with numbers, that never worked with me, because that wasn't my strength. My strength was to really engage with people understand what's driving them and how we can link that to our the purpose and vision of our organization,

Jan Griffiths: 15:25

Is the culture at VW changing then?

Andrew Savvas: 15:29

100%. I've seen in the 10 years I've been in this organization, that command or control is moving to a lot more of a conviction driven, a purpose driven leadership. And that's coming straight from Germany, and the Thomas Schaffer and Imelda Bane sales and marketing, we are seeing that a lot more. We are seeing a company that is really changed from being compliance driven and numbers driven to with a sense of purpose. And I feel that and, and that's what gives me the energy to keep going and keep moving across the board for this organization.

Jan Griffiths: 16:00

Well, I'm thrilled to hear that. And I will share with you I have three clients right now that are all German, tier ones, all German tier ones. And if you had told me 10-15 years ago that I would be working with German companies, German automotive companies that are really embracing more of an authentic leadership model and moving away from command and control. I would have said, you’re smoking something. There's not a chance that that's going to happen. I've been to Wolfsburg. I've been yelled at in German, where I don't speak German. I felt the command and control from the second I walked in the building. If you had told me that was going to change, I would have said no. So, I am thrilled to hear that from you. Can you share with us some of the ways in which the leadership model is changing?

Andrew Savvas: 16:46

I'll give you a really good example. So historically, Volkswagen built cars for the European market and exported them here to the North American market. And now what we are seeing is Volkswagen success is getting stronger, we're more profitable. And our sales are growing because the voice of the market is being heard in Wolfsburg. We are building the Atlas for the American market that has been built. The Tiguan was built that way. And you can see the success of these cars versus the Tourag or the European imported Tiguan. You can really see the difference. And they're asking me our opinion, we're going to meeting them on the design of the car and what our market’s needs. And they're listening to us. And I think, if you're going to build the trust of your teammates all over the world, you have to listen to them. And they're doing that. And that's extremely important. And we are seeing the success coming to us. The ID 4 now is built in Chattanooga, the spec is slightly different for the American market. I mean design meetings regularly. It's in fact, tomorrow morning, I'm gonna design meeting to talk about what the US market needs for our future electric cars in terms of styling. Because the styling and the size of the cars are very different to what you would have grown up in in Wales versus what we need in Michigan, or in Virginia, that's very different. And that's extremely important. And that, to me is the biggest signal because 10 years ago, it wasn't the case here in North America. And we are seeing this organization being more profitable here in the States because of that.

Jan Griffiths: 18:08

I love that. Let's go back to attracting talent. What are you doing to attract the right talent, to attract Gen Z into Volkswagen? What are some of the things that you're doing?

Andrew Savvas: 18:20

I think we can do a lot more, let me start with that, Jan, I think we need to get out there and really get that generation to understand this amazing transformation we're going through we're moving people from point A to point B, and it's going under this electric digital connected transformation. It's really exciting. And what we need to do better is get out there and promote our industry and get the best minds working within our industry. So, I am working with our HR team and DNI team to make sure that we are attracting talent by getting out there and almost selling our industry as well as Volkswagen. So, people understand why we're so excited to come to work every day. But more importantly, what I'm doing here, I think, is the most important with my current team and how we get the word out what it's like to work for Volkswagen, because that's the stuff that money can't buy. It's not just about getting out there and selling and putting an ad in the paper. It's how we treat our people. And that, to me is the key and focusing on competency-based development. Succession Planning and sharing that growth within an organization; sharing those success stories is extremely important to me. So, I'll give you an example. We've had five CMOS in 10 years, and they've all been external at Volkswagen. And that was the first observation I made when I arrived in this organization that Why are we always going external? Why aren't we focused on developing internal talent? You know, I know when I went from Toyota to Volkswagen, the first 12 months of hygiene culturally, the shift from a Japanese organization to a German organization isn't easy within the same industry. So, we had to focus on creating really an internal path for our talented people to grow within the organization, someone believed in me once. And I would never forget that. And I need to create those pathways within this organization and show that if you are good in this organization, you will grow within this organization, you can move anywhere. And that's been my focal point is what am I doing with my own people first, Jan. And sharing their journey within the organization and attracting the younger generation into our industry to show them the opportunity, you can start in accounting, and then you can end up being a salesperson. And I knew that being running a sales and marketing organization, and you can run a brand. Like I've done, and there's many others like me. And that's my first goal is to create the proof. The proof points within that journey, before I go out and knock on doors and say, hey, come and work in the automotive industry, look how cool we are. Look at the transformation we're going through. Cars are electric now, isn't that cool? That's cool. But unless I can show you a journey, in a sense of purpose, it's not going to work. So, I need to build the foundations within this organization.

Jan Griffiths: 21:05

Let's talk about that journey, Gen Z coming into the workplace today. They are not going to tolerate the way that we grew up, which was, you need to stay in this role for at least two years before you can move to the next one. They absolutely will not tolerate that. And I've been talking a lot about this lately. And I think people agree with that in principle. Everybody I talked about that they'll go, "yeah, ahah. You're right, you're right, we need to move on faster." But when it comes down to it, leaders are reluctant to empower Gen Z, to give them the space they need to, to learn and to fail. Because that's the legacy of the old command and control system, right? It's like, oh, my gosh, if if this young kid fails, it's gonna come back on me and I can't have that. So how do we do that? How do we encourage our leaders to bring in Gen Z? Challenge them, make sure that they've got their backs and be okay, when they fail. I think is a huge challenge for us right now.

Andrew Savvas: 22:11

Massive challenge, because we're like you said, Jan, it's a massive generational difference in terms of the way we work and the way we think, and we have to be brave, Jan. This is it? What you've said, is 100% Correct. The difference between doing it and not doing it is the fortitude for us, our generation, to allow that to happen. We don't have all the answers. And we have to know that. And that's something that for me, personally, I'm happy to walk into a room and saying, I don't know, I need your help. And for me, that is the secret sauce that gets their engagement and allows them to space. And if they fail, the story I always say is give someone a cuddle when someone fails, put your arm around them and say that's okay. What can we learn from that rather than kicking their ass and telling them they're wrong, and they should have listened, the way we grew up in the industry. And we went to our manager for a decision that has to change, and we have to really focus on and really be deliberate on walking into a room even though we think we know the answer, which sometimes we're actually most of the time we walk into a room and we the back of our mind, we think we have a solution. But having the guts to say, I'm not going to say anything besides, how can we solve this problem? I need your help. I don't have the answer. And that engages people, but also, I think their generation Z needs a sense of purpose. And they are looking for an organization to stand for something. Whereas I guess, when we joined the industry 20 years ago, maybe it was just about building great cars, selling lots of cars, getting your market share up. But now Generation Z is looking for that sense of purpose. So, it's not just about walking into a room and said, Hey, Jan, the CEO said, We must do this today. And off we went and executed. Now we have to really be deliberate in thinking about how we deliver that message. Part of our values is becoming a global automotive leader. So how does that link to what we're trying to execute today and giving that generation z teammate, that sense of linking it to the greater purpose and how we're improving the environment, for example, by moving to electric, or how we're improving people's time by not having to go to a gas station anymore? And you can plug in the car at home every night? How are you linking that and just finding those nuggets. And to me, that is the key, the lazy leadership model, which says, hey, Jan said you must do this. And we all nod our heads creates no motivation. You'll get me to execute that no problem. And I'll do it. But you're not going to have me long term. They're going to have the same level of passion and commitment unless we're giving that generation Z, that sense of purpose.

Jan Griffiths: 24:39

Yeah, you're so it's so right. And when we grew up in industry, we didn't. We didn't care so much about purpose. I mean, for me, it was just like, hey, this is a great job. I love this. Give me more of it. Give me a career and give me more money. The idea of talking about mission and purpose didn't even enter my head because I totally accept Did the model of command and control, you tell me what to do? I will go do it. And now Gen Z is like, oh, no, we're not playing that game. It's a totally different approach to leadership.

Andrew Savvas: 25:11

And that's extremely important to creating diversity now, in our in our industry as well, because our industry can improve in the diversity we have, not just from gender, but also from race. Because from our perspective, if we don't start bringing in generation Z, we're going to miss the boat, not just in diversity of gender or race, but also enjoy diversity of thinking, and how the industry is moving, how the market is moving in. Today's consumers are less loyal than they were 20 years ago. I remember growing up, my dad had a Ford, and we always had Ford's in the house, because that's what we had. Whereas now people are happy to move on to any brand, whatever is the coolest thing. Whatever my neighbors got, or whatever I hear is good. I'll move to it. And I'll come back again later. Because I can lease a car for three years, or whatever the case may be. And we need to really have that diversity in thinking and Generation Z can offer us that if we do it correctly.

Jan Griffiths: 26:05

Yeah, it's again, we cannot win in the marketplace if we don't also win in the workplace. As we step back, let's look at the entire industry. What do you think is the number one challenge that we're faced with in the industry today, as it relates to leadership and culture?

Andrew Savvas: 26:26

I'm gonna get back to diversity again, if I look around, what is it 20 30% of our, our industry is female, and even probably less than leaders. And we need to really hone in, on that. And I'll tell you why I say and what we need to do in that space, Jan, for me is I grew up like I said, my parents were Greek Cypriot migrants to Australia. And I grew up thinking about in a very Anglo Saxon environment in Australia and thinking about how can I make it in this space when I'm the outsider, in my little pocket of the world, in Australia, in Sydney, and I happen to come across two Greek Cypriots, that happened to be leaders in one was in my industry, one was outside now, if I could see it, I couldn't believe I could do it. And that's what we don't have enough of enough female or black leaders in our industry. Because for us to improve diversity. And to be more successful in the future, we need to have more female leaders because if our young female stars can see it, they can believe it. And then they believe in themselves, they can do it, we will improve. And that, to me is the biggest challenge I take in my job because I don't see my job as someone who sells cars or markets or brands. I see my job in the industry as creating future leaders. So, I'm always thinking about how can I take that challenge of creating a more diverse workforce, a more diverse leadership group. So, then we can have a better, stronger and a more viable organization. And that's what I'm focused on. And to me, that's the biggest challenge I take to work every day. There's brilliant people who are engineers who are creating electric cars. There's people out there who are creating energy grids. That's not me where my strength lies is, is in leadership and developing people. And the greatest challenge in our space is diversity. And that's my challenge that I've taken upon myself. I guess, unofficially, and officially, within the capacity of my role.

Jan Griffiths: 28:29

And I'd like to go a little deeper on that.

Andrew Savvas: 28:32

Let's go.

Jan Griffiths: 28:33

Often, I've seen it in my career, where a senior leader will say, they're committed to diversity, and they are, you know, in their hearts they are, and then a position will come up on their team on their leadership team. And they'll say, well, I would have I would have put a female in there. I would have put a diverse candidate in there. But they were unavailable. And I say, I say wrong question. Wrong question. Wrong answer. The question is, what are you doing to build the pipeline early on so that you have diverse candidates ready to go into these roles?

Andrew Savvas: 29:13

Spot on. There's two parts if I would've think about that. First part is, we need to get braver and employing on competencies not experience because when we advertise a job, we get 100 resumes. And unless they've got automotive experience, we throw them out, then you get the leftovers, which is automotive experience what we left with? Basically, white males with 20 years experience or 10 years experience.

Jan Griffiths: 29:36

So true.

Andrew Savvas: 29:37

Because they're focused on experience, because it's, it's an easy path for us to get somebody who can hit the ground running. So, at a high level when we're employing externally, we really need to focus on the competency based traits that that human brings into this organization. And then focus on that and how they can transfer to our industry because we can learn a lot from them, and they can learn a lot from us as well and find that balance and being patient. But if we go for speed, we're never going to improve diversity in our organizations or our industry. Within the organization, I think bringing in diverse candidates that are Generation Z or a graduate level is extremely important. But what's just as important, like I said earlier, is creating the pathways within the organization for those people to grow in the organization, or the breads. No matter what they are, male, female, black, white, Hispanic, they have to have a pathway. But then more importantly, how do we create those heroes in the organization that I can look up to an aspire to, if I'm a young black graduate, who's another black guy, or girl in the organization, I can look up to and think to myself, geez, they did it. I can do it. I commend them, because you can relate to them. It's a human trait. If I see someone who's got a great background in the automotive industry, I'm going to gravitate to them, because that's just within me. And that's what's going to happen if you're LGBTQ plus or female, if you see them, you're going to relate to them, because you're going to have more in common with them at face value. You may not have it in when you're close up, but at least you can see them and think that they did it, I can do it. So, to me, it's a multi-pronged approach. And we have to get better at, and especially brave, Jan. And we, some of that, to focus on quality on competencies over speed of employment.

Jan Griffiths: 31:21

But again, I'm going to bring this back around to fear. So, you've got middle level managers and leaders out there. And my background is the exact opposite to yours. It's purchasing a supply chain. And I see it time and time again, where Supply Chain Leaders are like, oh, no, no, I need a commodity manager for this particular commodity. I got to make sure that they've got experience in that area, and they've worked in automotive, otherwise, they're not going to survive. And you're exactly right. And so, you end up with this really narrow pool of candidates, you've got to get over that. And there will be judgment from your colleagues, that you hired somebody that does not have the skill set in the particular, whether it's a mechanical area, or whatever competency is required. And you got to get over that and say, no, no, no, this is exactly the type of person we want in this organization. They're collaborative. They know how to work with others.

Andrew Savvas: 32:14

Yep. I'll give you a good example on that, Jan. Recently, because it's you, we weren't always went external, on our marketing, a CMO role. And we employed Rachel Zulu Zack now, who is our current CMO, she's got no marketing experience. But she has been within the organization for 20 years. She understands the culture of this business. She's worked in customer service. She's the head of CX. She's the head of digital. And she has done various roles and HR. I didn't put her in the role because she was an expert in marketing. I put her in her role, because she's a competent leader, who understands the business who understands how to build bridges with our dealers, who understands how to build bridges with Germany, and Wolfsburg, and understands how to lead and develop people. The marketing role, we have great agencies that we work with. We have great people in her team. That's the stuff that she can learn by being with those people. But we put her in there, because she's a competent leader. And that to me is extremely important. And we have to start changing that. Same with Han Schaffer, now, who's the head of our sales team, he's a product guy, he's been doing product for the last 10 15 years, he did accounting before that. And we put him in a sales role, not because he's had any experience in sales, but he's got the competencies to develop into a sales leader, and he's got great people around him. We have to remember, when we appoint leaders, or people into a job, they're not working in isolation. They're working within a team. They're not going to fail because they have no experience. They will fail if the support system isn't there, and the process isn't there. And we have to really focus on those competencies. And to me, we're far from perfect to I should say, I'm far from perfect, but it's putting those things in place based on my learnings in working in different cultures in different markets and observing and watching how things play out.

Jan Griffiths: 33:59

The fact that you did that, I would imagine, has a ripple effect throughout the entire organization. So, you just cited two examples of where you clearly made a decision to put the right person in the job, not because of their skill set or competency around that particular field. So, other people see that, that will give other leaders in the organization courage to do the same. You mentioned the word "bravery" earlier. I believe you're exactly right. It's about being brave and breaking the leadership model of the past so that we can move forward in the future.

Andrew Savvas: 34:36

Spot on, I cannot agree with you more. And that's the aim. I don't know if we'll be successful yet, Jan. But that's the aim is to lead by example, not be afraid to make a mistake. Some have questioned those decisions and I back myself and I back those people and I told all my colleagues, it's okay to be vulnerable and feel like you're out of place in these new jobs. It's okay. And, as long as they know I've got their back and I'm going to help them through, and I think that's extremely important. And most people understand the difference between effort versus lack of effort when it comes to execution of a strategy. And I think people are kinder than we really think. And we're always over paranoid about whatever I'm going to say, well, I truly believe that our colleagues in the market if they see intent is correct. They will forgive and will allow us to move on and we overthink things, we, we actually think most people are thinking about us all the time. But we're just a fleeting memory, or a fleeting moment in someone's mind. And we have to get over ourselves sometimes and get on with it.

Jan Griffiths: 35:35

That's so true, right? I'm particularly in the early part of my career, I remember being so concerned about what people thought about me, what I said, what I looked like, and all of it. And then you realize, as you get older, you think, oh, people don't really give a shit about that.

Andrew Savvas: 35:52

Genius, spot on. We had had this discussion, actually, earlier this morning is, I wish I knew earlier, that not to worry about other people, and not to worry about other people's opinions as much as I do. Or I did. And even today, I still worry about it. I'm a human being. I want everyone to love me, that's just a human trait for everyone to love, like you.

Jan Griffiths: 36:12

Yeah

Andrew Savvas: 36:12

But you have to get over it. Because not everyone will like you equately. And I wish I had that perspective earlier, not to be so paranoid, not to go home and waste my personal precious family time on worrying what my boss thought, for that three minutes that I spoke, and I spent seven hours thinking about that. And that's, that's another important trait that I think we need to impart on people in the industry is just go for it, and you've made a decision, reflect on it, and then keep moving.

Jan Griffiths: 36:38

And it requires you to be comfortable in your own skin in order to do that, which is one of the traits of authentic leadership. And you have looked at all of my 21 traits of authentic leadership, which really, I put together based on my experience, and everybody I've interviewed, you know, I've learned so much from the people that I've interviewed on the podcast, out all of those 21 traits, Andrew, which one stands out to you the most?

Andrew Savvas: 37:06

Vulnerability, Jan, vulnerability. And I'll go back to the story I told you earlier, when I first joined the industry, and I would go into meeting rooms or board rooms. Everyone wanted to be the smartest person in the room. And I love watching people. And I love watching other people react to those people. And if you didn't know the numbers, you were out of the room, or you were caught incompetent. And you'd be, you know, told that you're not good enough for the job unless you knew every detail. We'd walk into rooms with folders and folders of information, just in case Jan asked me a question on the market share in 1974 of, you know, whatever car we're selling doesn't matter what brand. And I would sit there I thought, What? What happens if I say I don't know. And not that I've seen many vulnerable leaders, but it came out of just need trawling and hearing what I say and how I react. You know what, Jan? I don't know the answer to that. But I will find the answer. As long as I knew the general direction of where I was going. And the ability to see people react, and in a positive way to that, gave me fuel to allow me to share that vulnerability within my own team and to my own teammates, and saying to them have worked in four different markets with two different brands. I walked into every market when I arrived here, Jan, not knowing less than most people in that room about that market. What choice do I have to say, I don't know, Jan. How can you help me understand what happens in this industry, and if I don't share that vulnerability, I'm never going to build that trust. I'm never going to have that human connection that you speak about in your 21 traits. Vulnerability gives you human connection, and human connection in the generational change in our industry. And the generational change in our economy is so important now that we have to be more human, to engage people. If we just do transaction-based meetings. If we do numbers-based meetings, we will not succeed, we really have to understand how to engage with people individually. And when you show vulnerability, you get to see individual reactions to your vulnerability. Some might say you're a weak leader, because you don't know you've admitted you've made a mistake, some may have the confidence to speak up and take you on a journey they want to take you on if I walk into a room, Jan. And I say, tell me about this and why doesn't work this way. I'm guiding the conversation tool to the way I've set that conversation based on my opening statement. If I walk into you as Jan, how does podcasting work? Or what does leadership development look like for you? You have the authority to speak what you want to say and take me on your journey and then I get to listen understand your journey. I might not agree. But at least you've taken me through your journey and your vision and your thoughts and not guided you by saying I think podcasting. It hasn't got a future. Or I think leadership development should go this way, and I'm putting on a debate straight away. And that's what I want. That's the strength of vulnerability. It creates transparency, it creates trust. And it sets the foundation for cultural change in our organization, or in our industry.

Jan Griffiths: 40:13

I couldn't agree with you more. And I love what you said about your example, when you tried it. Because you don't wake up one morning and say, vulnerability, I've got it, I understand it, I've read the Brene Brown book, and I'm gonna be vulnerable. Starting tomorrow, it doesn't work that way. You've got to try it a little bit at a time. And then you see the reaction. And to be perfectly honest, it took me a heck of a long time, to learn to see vulnerable and to practice vulnerability, and to see it as a leadership strength. And if nothing else, I hope that our listeners listening to this podcast today, get that one nugget out of this podcast to just try it. Just try to be more vulnerable. Try a little bit at a time.

Andrew Savvas: 40:57

Yeah, spot on. That's so true. And sometimes you get it wrong, too. Sometimes you're too vulnerable in a situation. And sometimes you walk in, and your emotions get the better of you on some topics. You never gonna get it right. But that's okay. And that's something I wish I knew, again, 20 years ago, that it's okay to get it wrong, Jan, and it's okay to miss the mark. And people will react differently to your vulnerability. And I've got no issue with that anymore. I did 20 years ago, but today I don't.

Jan Griffiths: 41:24

Yeah, I agree. Okay, enough of the leadership stuff, you want to talk about being vulnerable, let's get vulnerable and go into the personal side. Andrew, favorite band?

Andrew Savvas: 41:36

Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Jan Griffiths: 41:38

Ah, last time you saw a live performance?

Andrew Savvas: 41:41

I went and saw Hamilton. Twice, I saw it in New York. And I took my daughter to watch it again, in DC. And it's a wonderful show. And for an Australian coming to the US, it's a nice little glimpse of American history. But also, another lesson, Jan, that I think about when I go there. In our industry, we sell cars for 10s of 1000s of dollars. And we have salespeople who are sort of trained, sort of half trained to sell cars sometimes. When you go to watch a live performance, those actors or not, you're paying two or $300 for a ticket. And those actors practice and practice and practice until they can't make a mistake. Whereas in our industry, sometimes we allow ourselves and others in our team, to practice live in front of a customer and not be prepared. And I love watching going to the theater and watching these young talented people really, absolutely nail it time and time again, for two or $300 ticket not for a 30 or 40 or $50,000 car. And it's amazing. Really cool.

Andrew Savvas: 41:46

Yeah, that's a great perspective. Favorite TV show that you like to binge watch maybe during lockdown.

Andrew Savvas: 42:53

Oh, good one. Ted Lasso or watch TED. I wasn't a big TV person; I like to watch sport on TV. But we were moving from the UK to the US. We couldn't get COVID. So, we locked ourselves in the house for a month before we get to fly, just in case we've got COVID we've watched Ted Lasso and that was awesome. Nice little analogies on leadership in there as well. Really cool.

Jan Griffiths: 43:15

Yeah, I love that favorite podcast.

Andrew Savvas: 43:19

Obviously, I love this podcast. I've listened to the last days my first day. And so, what I tried to do you know, in my business, Jan, I don't get a lot of time to have a diverse perspective on what's happening in the world. So, every day, I tried to listen to two or three different podcasts on the way to work and two or three different podcasts on the wide. So, I've got about 20 podcasts that run through my playlist and they're always different. And I've listened to your podcast in the past and I've listened to other leadership podcasts. And then I'll listen to some random podcasts on artificial intelligence just to get a feel of what's going on. So, I don't have one. I have many and probably the most regular one is a football club podcast called football weekly by The Guardian in the UK. Just because I love football is probably, they might send me the regular one that runs twice a week or three times a week. But the rest of them, I make it a very deliberate effort to create a diverse playlist for myself to keep my head outside of the automotive waters well sometimes and see what's going on.

Jan Griffiths: 44:16

Yeah, yeah, I do much the same. There's I obviously love my automotive ones and leadership podcast. But I also like Smartless with Jason Bateman. Yeah, it's just fun that they talk about acting and they've always got directors and celebrities on there. But I love the way it's very raw and unfiltered and they're just chatting away. I enjoy that it's good to turn the brain off, you know from the leadership stuff sometimes. Now we all have distractions in life. Some of us go down the rabbit hole on social media. Some of us it's TV, what's the demon of distraction in your life that you fight with?

Andrew Savvas: 44:56

This might be the wrong answer, Jan, but sometimes work is my distraction. My wife would tell you that I never switch off. And I'm not very good. I've got three kids who have moved all over the world for me. I've got a wonderful wife who sacrificed a lot for me to be where I am today. And my biggest distraction is not turning off work, after hours. I don't have social media distractions. Of course, I like flicking through social media, checking in my LinkedIn profile, who's watching me just to boost the ego every now and then, of course, I watch a little bit of TV in sport. But my biggest distraction is not giving myself enough time with my family and quality time because I come home after work. And I'm so engaged in what I do. I need to really think about switching off and giving the people that love me and support me the time they deserve, rather than sitting there, trying to think about that next meeting and what I've could have done better in the last meeting and have I upset Jan today or whatever. That's what happens. And that's a distraction for me, I need to get better at it. I don't have the ability to compartmentalize, and I really admire people who can. And I haven't mastered that. And for me, I need to get better at it and the one thing I tried to do is take my kids to their sporting events and really focus in on that. And rather than just sit at home and have the emails on and just randomly check my emails and wanting to respond to every email immediately.

Jan Griffiths: 46:17

That is a demon of distraction. This, this needs to respond to the emails. 24/7. Right? Can you, will you make a commitment to me that you will do something about that when you go home tonight?

Andrew Savvas: 46:30

You've got it, Jan, you got it. I hope my wife's always just, it's not listening to this. But I hope she is because and I want to give her a shout out because she has done everything for me to be here like this. We moved four times in Australia, this is our fourth international, fourth move away from Australia. And it's extremely important. And then everyone who's listening, you can't forget the people who made the sacrifices. Without my parents and my wife, and my kids too for us to be here and part that our you know, our leadership knowledge into the industry. And that's important. So, you spot on. You've got me and I'll give you an update. I'll let you know how I'm doing. I can give you her number, you can tell her. She can tell you.

Jan Griffiths: 47:09

All right, you got it. Is there anything that I should have asked you and I didn't?

Andrew Savvas: 47:15

Jan, for me, no. I think the only message I've got is this is a process that I don't think anyone is perfect at and I've listened to four or five of your podcasts. And there's people who, who were on there who was so articulate and spoke so well. And I was petrified walking the dog yesterday, listen to one of the podcasts. It was the one on Janet Yellen. And I thought, how can I compete with this fella talking about Janet Yellen. He's a journalist. He's a professional speaker and writer. And here I am. And that's the one thing that is probably the most important thing for me to share with everybody is it's okay not to be the most articulate, or the smartest person in the room. Really learn to be yourself. Don't waste a lot of energy trying to emulate other leaders in the organization, doesn't matter if it's Toyota or Volkswagen. And I spent more time trying to pretend to be somebody I'm not. Work out what you're good at. And really be comfortable in your own skin. Because there's many things, I'm not good at. And I'd like to think I'm good at a couple of things. And I really doubled down on that. And that's helped me get through my career and travel the world and work in amazing industries all over the world. And it doesn't matter if it's with an OEM or a tier one, tier two, or tier three supplier. There's nothing as special, I think, then working in the automotive industry in some form. And seeing the transformation and being part of that transformation that will only happen. If you're authentic, and you're being yourself. And that's a lesson I wish I could impart to everybody is don't pretend you're someone else. Don't try and emulate somebody else. Listen, learn, observe, and just focus on how you can make yourself better.

Jan Griffiths: 48:56

And that is a beautiful way to close our conversation today. Andrew Savvas, thank you very much for joining me today.

Andrew Savvas: 49:04

Hey, Jan. Thanks for letting me join and I really enjoyed that conversation. Thank you very much.

Jan Griffiths: 49:14

Thank you for listening to the automotive leaders podcast. Click the Listen link in the show notes to subscribe for free on your platform of choice. And don't forget to download the 21 traits of authentic leadership PDF by clicking on the link below. And remember, stay true to yourself, be you and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership.