Episode 68
Meet Daniel Pink, NY Times best selling author
Regret is a “peculiar emotion,” says Daniel Pink. “People regret inaction more than they regret taking action.”
What’s more, regret is universal — and healthy. But it’s in need of a rebrand.
In his new book, “The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward,” Dan turns the conventional wisdom about regret into a positive force for change — and offers crucial lessons for leaders who strive for authenticity and gravitas.
For those of us in the automotive industry, his analysis is especially apt. We can't afford to miss the opportunities we have in this moment of massive industry disruption. We should not look back and see the decisions we make as inadequate or obsolete.
Dan's book includes insights from the last 50 years of social psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, and developmental psychology, as well as his own groundbreaking research. His findings help us better understand what we as leaders can do to help our teams reach their full potential. (Spoiler alert: It's not about "command and control" or staying in our comfort zones.)
Host Jan Griffiths welcomes Dan to discuss how regret can be a catalyst for change, particularly for automotive leaders.
Other themes discussed on this episode:
- Why "doing the right thing" might just mean disrupting our fossil fuel-driven industry
- How to choose comfort over discomfort
- Making the choice to go back to the office (or not)
- What a traditional Japanese method of mending pottery can teach us about improving workplace culture
Featured Guest: Daniel Pink
What he does: Dan is the author of seven books, five of which are New York Times bestsellers. His latest is “The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward”. Prior to his publishing career, Dan worked in various roles in politics and government, including as the chief speechwriter to Vice President Al Gore.
On Gravitas: “It’s a mix of authenticity, credibility, and vision — all those three things combined. Authenticity, because the person is being true to herself. Credibility means that other people look at the person and can trust that person — trust not only their morality and what they say, but also trust their competence. And then vision. You can be an authentic person who has credibility and technical skill, and if you have no vision, you don't go anywhere.”
Episode Highlights
Timestamped inflection points from the show
[3:57] Who is Daniel Pink? Dan describes himself as a citizen, a father, a husband, and a writer — whose “story is unfinished.”
[7:06] Age of reason: One of the few demographic differences Dan uncovered is that younger folks tend to split their regrets somewhat equally between action and inaction. But as we age, “inaction regrets take over, almost by about two-to-one margin,” he notes.
[11:56] Cultural mosaic: The four categories of regret can give us clues about what makes a coherent corporate culture, says Dan. Fair pay and physical safety are basic values that mirror foundational regrets. Psychological safety is necessary for people to feel comfortable speaking up and taking chances, thus preventing “boldness regret.” The other two are more self-evident: Doing the right (moral) thing and a sense of belonging or affinity with one another that leads to connection.
[12:40] Fueling the future: Dan thinks "doing the right thing" in the auto industry might mean evolving from the internal combustion engine to "cleaner" vehicles.
[13:10] Wisdom from Intel: Former Intel CEO Andy Grove once said that when he had to face a tough decision, he’d ask himself: What would my successor do? That question is a great tool for leaders, says Dan. “Would your successor say, Wait a second: We’re at the brink of this seismic change. I’m going to slow things down […] I’m going to try to restrict progress? No, I don’t think your successor would do that.”
[13:39] Inside story: Dan says another powerful question to ask is: What story do you want to tell yourself in 10 years? It’s like making a phone call to Future You. Chances are, in 2032 you’ll either applaud yourself for being at the forefront of positive transformations in the automotive industry or regret being an impediment to them.
[17:17] Office space: Does post-pandemic life mean going back to the office? Maybe not all the time. Dan thinks we “have to give people a reason and have some kind of logic behind it.” Companies that required their teams to return to in-person work in the fall got a rude awakening: “They would say, Okay, everybody, if you want to be committed, you’ve got to be back in the office. And everybody under 40 was like, Okay, whatever. I’ll find a new job, dude.”
[10:44] Failure is a (valid) option: Most people don’t regret their failures as much as they regret not trying at all. He saw thousands of people who said, I started a business that totally flopped, but I’m okay with that. Because at least I gave it a try. For every one person who regretted a failure, “there were 40 or 50 who had the opposite kind of regret.”
[15:01] More than it seams: Kintsugi is the art of mending pottery with precious metals. “The goal was not to pretend those cracks didn’t exist, but to put gold in the seams of those cracks so that it had a different appearance and became more beautiful — because of the cracks, not in spite of the cracks,” Dan explains. “I think that’s an interesting metaphor for regret, that all of us have these cracks in our life, but they can be a source of beauty. They should not be a source of shame.”
[24:58] On Gravitas: Dan chooses three of Jan's 21 traits of authentic leadership and explains why authenticity, credibility, and vision are at the root of gravitas.
Top quotes
[4:39] Jan: I do not want leaders in this industry to have any regrets.
Dan: Well, I think that's a good aspiration. I think the other aspiration should be to help executives in your industry, or any industry, learn from their regrets rather than slide past them.
[8:19] Dan: “Regrets are almost always regrets of inaction: If only I had traveled more. If only I had asked him out on a date. If only I had started that business. Even connection regrets are often regrets about inaction. Moral regrets are often regrets about action. So it is an interesting distinction in the architecture of regret that tells us a lot about what makes human beings tick and what makes life worth living.”
[11:16] Jan: It takes guts, obviously, to make a decision; it takes a belief and a commitment in yourself to make that kind of a change. And when I look at the leaders out there right now in automotive, I know that they know that the world is changing. There's massive disruption in this industry. And they're gonna need to break the mold of command and control.
Dan: Absolutely.
[11:56] Dan: "These four regrets give us some clues about what makes a coherent corporate culture. What do you want as a leader? What kind of culture do you want [?] … If you want a culture with some degree of stability (that's what these foundation regrets are about), which are fair pay, physical safety … in the automotive manufacturing process. So people don't feel precarious. But bonus regrets — not only do you want to be able to take chances, but you want to create conditions of psychological safety that allow your team to take chances if we are in this period of incredible disruption. And obviously we … can't do it alone. You need people on your team to speak up and [for] people on your team to take chances, you've got to offer some psychological safety. You've got to do the right thing."
[12:40] Dan: "A lot of this disruption is ultimately about, in some ways, doing the right thing — particularly when it comes to the conversion from the internal combustion engine, which is burning fossil fuel, to vehicles that are cleaner."
[16:27] Dan: “For a long time, an office was a place that had the equipment and the people […] the tools you needed to create wealth. And you certainly couldn’t afford them on your own. That’s no longer true. Being in the office was the only way to talk to the people you were working with. That’s no longer true. So what’s an office for?”
[18:46] Dan: “I don’t know whether there are nefarious motives behind welcoming people back, encouraging, urging people back to the office. I just think it’s a retreat to the comfortable, a retreat to the known. People generally don’t like uncertainty. And so the idea is like, Wait a second, this is going to be like this forever? I don’t like that. Let’s just make it the way it used to be. That’s a pretty common human instinct. It’s generally a dangerous instinct, but it’s pretty common.”
[24:28] Dan: “When you say no regrets, I don’t have any regrets, I never look backward — that is an act of an abject lack of self-awareness.”
Transcript
[Transcript]
Jan Griffiths:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Finding Gravitas authentic leadership podcast. Get ready to join a conversation with Daniel Pink. For those of you who may not be familiar with Dan's work, Dan is recognized as one of the foremost business minds of our day. He's known to be a deep researcher and compelling communicator. He's the author of seven books on business, work, creativity and behavior, including the New York Times bestsellers, The Power of Regret, When, and A Whole New Mind. And the number one New York Times best sellers, Drive and, To Sell Is Human. Dan's newest book, The Power of Regret, how looking backward, moves us forward, explores how we can enlist our regrets, to make smarter decisions, perform better, and deepen our sense of meaning and purpose. Dan was previously the host of crowd control, a television series about human behavior on the National Geographic Channel. And he's appeared frequently on NPR, PBS, ABC, CNN, and countless other TV and radio networks. He's been a contributing editor at Fast Company, Wyatt, as well as a business columnist for The Sunday Telegraph. His articles and essays have also appeared in The New York Times, the Harvard Business Review, the Atlantic, Slate and many other publications. Before venturing out on his own 20 years ago, Dan worked in several positions in politics and government, including serving from 1995 to 1997 as Chief Speechwriter to Vice President, Al Gore. Wow, that's quite a background, right? It's an impressive background. But what does all of that have to do with leadership in the automotive industry? I know who you're asking yourself that question. The answer is simple. And it comes from Dan's latest book, The Power of Regret. Simply stated, people regret inaction more than they regret taking action. And I want to bring to you, my beloved, Finding Gravitas audience, compelling interviews with experts who will challenge your thinking and provide a different perspective, I want to be sure that we don't end up as an industry with the regret of inaction, particularly now during this time of massive disruption and transformation. I explore this topic and more. With Dan Pink, the guy who literally wrote the book on regret, in this episode will cover the different types of regret, regrets and values, how to view your actions from the lens of your future self. We talk about back to the office, choosing comfort over discomfort, and Dan's pick of his top two of the 21 traits of authentic leadership. Let's get into it and join the conversation.
Jan Griffiths:Dan Pink, welcome to the show.
Daniel Pink:Thank you, Jan.
Jan Griffiths:Dan Pink, who are you? What is your story?
Daniel Pink:Who am I? I'm a human being. I am a citizen of the world. I am a father. I am a husband. I'm a writer, and my story is unfinished.
Jan Griffiths:Ooh, I like that. I like that. Dan, we're here today to talk about regret.
Daniel Pink:All right.
Jan Griffiths:As you know, I am on a mission to make sure that the automotive industry fully embraces authentic leadership and this time of transformation. I do not want this industry leaders in this industry to have any regrets, Dan?
Daniel Pink:Well, I mean, I think that's a good I think that's a good aspiration. I think the other aspiration Jan should be to help executives in your industry or any industry learn from their regrets rather than slide past them.
Jan Griffiths:Yes. And I can't think of anybody more qualified to talk about this subject than Dan Pink, you've just written a book on the very subject it's called the power of regret. So let's get right into it. And I would like you to highlight for our audience, the four core regrets.
Daniel Pink:Sure. Well, what I feel let me take a step back and tell you how I know how I found this. So. So among the research that I did for this book is I looked at about 50 years of research in social psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, developmental psychology about this peculiar emotion of regret, I did a large public opinion survey of the US population. But I also collected a lot of regrets from around the world. And we're up to over 20,000 regrets now from people in 109 countries. And I found exactly as you say that around the world, people have the same four regrets and I will go through them quickly for you. First, foundation regrets, foundation regrets are if only I'd done the work. These are people who regret spending too much and saving too little, smoking, not taking care of their bodies, not working hard enough in school, small decisions that create problems later on. Second category, very important for leaders boldness regrets, if only I take in the chance, these are people again, in the grand scheme of things, it's it's it transcends domains, these are people who regret not traveling, not speaking up not asking somebody out on a date, not starting a business. Third category moral regrets if only I'd done the right thing. These are people who regret doing the wrong thing. Like fooling kids in school, cheating on their spouse, swindling a business partner, that sort of thing. And then finally, number four, our connection regret, these are regrets about relationships, and the full gamut of relationship, not just our romantic relationship, but our our whole life's worth of relationships. And when they come apart, and we don't do anything about it, we feel bad. And we feel a sense of regret about that. So those are the four regrets foundation, boldness, moral and connection.
Jan Griffiths:And your research. Dan has indicated that people regret inaction. Yeah, more than they regret action. And I when I first heard that, I heard you actually say that on stage at the OESA event. I had to think about that for a moment. But when when you when you think about it, and you marinate in that that's true, and you have the data to support that.
Daniel Pink:Yeah. Why did you why did you? Did you not believe it at first, or you didn't just understand what you didn't understand what I meant?
Jan Griffiths:I had to think about it.
Daniel Pink:Okay. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't think that it's I agree to you. And I don't think that it's an obvious insight. In fact, I think it might be counterintuitive, in a way. We think a lot about actions. And we think less about what we didn't do, generally day to day. But when it comes to regret, it's the reverse. And what you've seen, there's a big age effect here. It's one of the few demographic differences I was able to uncover. When we're young in say, in our 20s or so we tend to have equal numbers of regrets of action, what I did and regrets of inaction what I didn't do, as we age, though, the inaction regrets takeover, almost by about two to one margin. So we regret what we didn't do much more than what we did. And this comes down in those categories. Because a lot of boldness regrets are almost always regrets of inaction. If only I had traveled more, if only I had asked him out on a date. If only I had started that business, even connection regrets are often regrets about inaction, more regrets are often regrets about action. So it's a it's an interesting distinction in the architecture of regret that tells us a lot about what makes human beings tick. And what makes life worth living.
Jan Griffiths:Yeah, and I think we've all had an opportunity to question our values and whether or not we should take an action or not take an action. That's what the pandemic has done for us. And three, three years ago, I quit my corporate career had a great career. Right at the top of my game, everything was wonderful. And I quit to start my own business, I took my salary to zero by design, my choice, right?
Daniel Pink:Right.
Jan Griffiths:And people thought I was nuts. Well, then a pandemic hit. And I just started to get a few clients and get some speaking gigs. And people said to me, Do you regret leaving your corporate job? And I said, No, and I don't regret it. Now. Would it have been nice to have the comfort of some corporate income? During the pandemic? Yes, of course it would. But that's that's not what it's about. So no, I do not regret making the decision. I think I would have regretted not making the decision and staying in a corporate role for the rest of my life until this you know, this age of retirement whenever that is. So that's my my personal story on regret.
Daniel Pink:It's very consistent, Jan, because one of the things that I saw in looking at these 1000s upon 1000s upon 1000s of regrets are people who say, even had had terrible luck. Have you ever had a terrible outcome who say, I started a business totally flopped. But I'm okay with that. Because the least I gave it a try. There were a few people who said they started a business I went on about a flop that regret that no question about that. But for every one of those, there are 40 or 50, who had the opposite kind of regret.
Jan Griffiths:But it takes, it takes guts, obviously to make a decision like that. It takes a belief and it commitment in yourself to make that kind of a change. When I look at the leaders out there right now, in automotive, I know that they know that the world is changing, there is massive disruption in this industry. And they're gonna need to break the mold of command and control Absolutely. And take a take an action or do something different. What can we do, Dan, using the Power of Regret? To help them see that now is the time to take that action?
Daniel Pink:Well, it's a few things. I think that more broadly, we can go to these four regrets, and they give us some clues about what makes a coherent corporate culture. So what do you want as a leader? What kind of culture do you want to build? You want a culture with some degree of stability? That's what these foundation regrets are about, which is fair pay, physical safety, I guess, in the automotive manufacturing process. So people don't feel precarious. But bonus regrets you want to not only do you want to be able to take chances, but you want to create conditions of psychological safety that allow your team to take chances if you are in this period of incredible disruption. And obviously we are, you can't do it alone, you need that you need people in your team to speak up and people, your team to take chances to get off with some psychological safety, you got to do the right thing. And a lot of the moral regrets. And so a lot of this disruption is ultimately about is in some ways about doing the right thing, particularly when it comes to the conversion from, you know, in the internal combustion engine, which is burning fossil fuel to vehicles that are cleaner. And then finally, is connection regrets. What do people want in your organization, they want a sense of belonging, they want a sense of affinity with each other. That's one part of the answer, Jan. The other thing being a little bit more reductive, a little bit more tactical, is there are a few techniques for this for deciding what to do. I'll give you two of them. One of them comes from Andy Grove, former CEO of Intel, who said when he had to face a tough decision, he would always ask himself, what would my successor do? What would my successor do is a great tool for leaders, what my successor would do, would your successor say, oh, wait a second, we're at the brink of this seismic change, you know, I'm gonna do I'm gonna, I'm going to, I'm going to slow things down. I'm going to put my fingers in the ears and pretend it's not actually happening. I'm going to try to restrict progress. No, I don't think you're susceptible to that. The other thing is for yourself, you know, what story do you want to tell yourself in 10 years? So another technique that I like is, in a sense, making a phone call to the you of 10 years from now, the you of 2032? What does she want you to do? And it's pretty clear for any executive that the you of 2032 wants you to be part of this incredible transformation want you to be a force in this revolution, not an impediment to it. And so both of those techniques, I think are useful to help leaders clarify their values and decide appropriately.
Jan Griffiths:Yeah, I agree. It's about stopping where you are right now. And projecting into the future and saying, This is what I want the future to look like, and then let that drive the action or whatever you need to do exactly. There is a part in your book. And this reminds me of the need right now. Everybody's going back to work back to the office. And the command and control people are like, yeah, let's get him back into the office where I can see them and control them. Right. So they're trying to, you know, trying to get everybody back. That's all, that's all good in their mind. But the problem is that, you know, there's no, there's no change. They just want everything to go back to the way it was. And there's a part a part in your book where you talk about and correct me if I get the pronunciation wrong. Kintsugi is that right?
Daniel Pink:Yeah. Kintsugi? Yes. Yeah. Tell us about that. Well, that's, that's interesting. That's Kintsugi is a form of pottery. Yeah, it's an ancient form of pottery were created in China where the emperor would who had broken say a ceramic pot would have it put back together again. And the goal was not to pretend those cracks didn't exist, but to actually put gold in the seams of those cracks, so that it actually had a different appearance and became actually more beautiful, because of the cracks, not in spite of the cracks. And I think that's an interesting metaphor for regret that all of us have these cracks in our life, but there's this they can be a source of beauty, that should not be a source of shame. And they certainly at a more practical level can be an engine for making progress in our personal and professional lives.
Jan Griffiths:Yeah, see, it made me think of the leaders trying to put the ball back together right. But and you can you can do that, but then find the gold you know, where's the gold? There's gold in there somewhere find it. Let's bring it outside. I really love that the first time I'd heard of that Kintsugi.
Daniel Pink:Yeah. The other thing that I'm like back to the office is like you have to ask yourself, why do you want people back in the office? What's the point? I mean, I think Fundamental questions here, what's an office for? What isn't office today? You know, for a long time in office was a place that had the equipment and the people, it was the only place you needed to go to the office because that's where the, the the tools you needed to create wealth were. And you certainly couldn't afford them or housing on your own. That's no longer true. And then being in the office is the only way to talk to the people you were working with. That's no longer true. So, what's an office for? I actually don't, I actually don't buy, I find it almost impossible to imagine that we're going to go back to a white collar workforce that is entirely remote. I find that very hard to believe. I also find it very hard to believe that we're going to go back to a white collar workforce, where people are sitting in cubicles, doing heads down work on their own computers talking to each other in a downtown office. I don't think that's I think we're going to figure that they think we're gonna figure something out. And so I think that going to the office has to be intentional. What you have to give people a reason for doing that. And you have to give, you have to have some kind of, of logic behind it. So the idea of just summoning people back to the office, because they're like serfs is absurd. This is why even the big banks who started doing that, around the fall, got their head handed to them, they would say, Okay, everybody, if you're wrong, be committed, you gotta be back in the office, and everybody under 40 was like, okay, whatever, I'll find a new job, dude.
Jan Griffiths:Yeah. And I see that there's a lot of that going on right now, particularly in automotive people trying to get their teams back to the office. And they often say, Well, it's because you know, where teams we should collaborate. I like face to face collaboration. And I would agree with that to a point. But it's really bullshit. They're really using that as an excuse to get people back into the office. The idea behind you know, collaboration is exactly as you said, it should be intentional.
Daniel Pink:Yeah
Jan Griffiths:You don't have to come into the office between eight and five, come in for a team meeting for a cross functional team meeting when it makes sense.
Daniel Pink:Yeah.
Jan Griffiths:And give people the freedom to make those decisions.
Daniel Pink:Right. I generally agree with that. I think a bigger problem there is that we don't know like, what kind of work should we be collaborating on? Or what kind of work should we be doing ourselves. We don't have a good theory that we're going to tease that out. I don't know whether there are nefarious motives behind welcoming people back, encouraging urging people back in the office, I just think it's a retreat to the, to the comfortable the retreat to the known, people generally don't like uncertainty. And so the idea is the like, wait a second, this is going to be like this forever. I don't like that. Let's just make it the way it used to be. And that's a that's a pretty common human instinct. It's generally a dangerous instinct, but it's a pretty common.
Jan Griffiths:And is that why we often choose not to take the action, because that comfort that need for comfort and certainty is so compelling?
Daniel Pink:I think that's a big part of it. I think that the momentary need for comfort is stronger than the long term need for variety. In some cases, unless we stop and think about it, that's a very instinctual response. But if we stop and think about it, if we if we use that, that tool that we were talking about before, saying, okay, my instinct right now is to choose comfort over change. But what is the 'me' if 10 years from now want me to do right now? Probably wants me to choose change over comfort? If my successor came in here, what would she do? She would probably choose change over comfort. It's sort of related to Daniel Kahneman's idea of thinking fast and thinking slow. Sometimes when we think very fast, we make intuitive, instinctual decisions that actually are counterproductive for us.
Jan Griffiths:Dan, in your book, you talk a lot about regret, really, the other side to regret can tell us what we want in our lives.
Daniel Pink:Right? Yeah, that we were talking about that before. So with these four core regrets that people around the world tell me reveal, I mean, they're telling me what they value the most. So foundation regrets, what do people value? Stability. Boldness, what do they value growth and learning and psychological richness? Moral regrets, where do they value goodness? Connection? regrets, where do they value love, in the full sense of the word, not only romantic love, but just the broader sense of that's what people value and if they value that in their lives, and I think that they do, we have a chorus of 20,000 people telling us what they value in their lives, if that's what they value in their lives? Why would they not value it in the half of their waking hours or spending at work?
Jan Griffiths:Let's talk about authentic leadership. And I'm going to read back to you my favorite quote from the book. And here it is, it says, "Authenticity requires boldness, and when authenticity is thwarted, So is growth. The most telling demonstration of this point came from several dozen people from all over the world, who described their regret their failure to be bold with the same five words, not being true to myself."
Daniel Pink:That is, I mean, authenticity. There are many forces in the universe and certainly inside of corporations that are countervailing winds to the drive for authenticity. And in some ways, when we choose not to be authentic, we are in choosing comfort over excellence in a way. And that's a mistake. And people end up regretting that. And here's thing, it's an interesting point that you're making. Because I mean, among the things we know about regret is that it's a very common emotion. It's one of the most common emotions that human beings have. And we know that if we treat it right, not ignore it, and not wallow in it, and they can help us on a whole range of tasks and help us become better strategists who can help us become better decision makers, help us become better negotiators better problem solvers and whatnot. And we also know as we were talking about before, that when people tell you what they regret, they're telling you what they value. Regret clarifies what matters to us. And it instructs us on how to do better in the future. But it comes with discomfort. And people want the clarification and they want the instruction, but they don't want the discomfort. And I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. You got to have the discomfort. And so this idea that we're the idea in the short term that we retreat to comfort that we choose comfort, over discomfort is a very dangerous instinct for us. That growth comes from discomfort, that learning comes from discomfort, that progress comes from discomfort.
Jan Griffiths:And it comes from putting your voice out there. Whether you're saying something or doing something and not being afraid of judgment and this fear of failure that comes along with it. Is there a relationship with fear of failure and regret? Yeah, I would think so.
Daniel Pink:Could be I mean, I think that that's what I think that's that fear of failure is what stops people from being bold. Yeah, I think that is certainly that's certainly part of it.
Jan Griffiths:Dan, of the 21 traits of authentic leadership, which one resonates with you the most and why?
Daniel Pink:Rather all they're all good. I'm going to pick two. I'm going to go with self awareness, which I think is is a starting point that if you're not aware of who you are, how you think, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, what your values are, how are you going to guide anybody else? All of us, myself included, need work on self awareness. So I think that's a huge part. The other one is purpose. I think that leaders who have a sense of purpose can iron out some of the other wrinkles, no matter how technically skilled they are, if there's no sense of purpose that they're instilling, they don't go anywhere.
Jan Griffiths:Yeah, and really, if you think about it, self awareness, this idea of understanding regret, goes deeper into self awareness, right? Because if you start to understand regret, you understand your values, and it all feeds on each other. When you say no
Daniel Pink:regrets, I don't have any regrets. I never look backward. That is an act of an abject lack of self awareness.
Jan Griffiths:Yeah, love in the book, when you referenced several times, people that have to take those tattoos off their arms and say no regrets.
Daniel Pink:People believe this philosophy of no regrets so deeply they enshrine it on their bodies and tattoos, but then of course, I have people who regret their no regrets that don't have to get removed.
Jan Griffiths:Dan, if Gravitas is the hallmark of authentic leadership, so not the the true definition of Gravitas. I use it to define the the ultimate hallmark of authentic leadership. That being, Gravitas, what is gravitas to you.
Daniel Pink:I think it's a mix of authenticity, credibility and vision, all those three things combined. Authenticity, because the person is being true to herself. Credibility, meaning that other people look at the person and can trust that person trust, not only their their morality and what they say but also trust their competence. And then vision. You can be a an authentic person who who's credibility, who has credibility and technical skill. And if you have no vision, you don't go anywhere. I mean, there's a line from the Bible that we know where there is no vision, the people perish. And I think that's generally true.
Jan Griffiths:Yes. So Dan, are you joining me on my mission to make sure that all the leaders in the automotive industry, take the bold action that they need to take?
Daniel Pink:Well, I'll join you out. I'll cheer you from the sideline. I'll be your Hallelujah chorus, whatever you need.
Jan Griffiths:Well, thank you. And I would like to close today with the Chinese proverb that you quote in your book and that is the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, and the second best time is today.
Daniel Pink:Thank you for helping me plant some trees today
