Episode 21
Meet Ann Carter - Part 2 and the questions I didn’t know how to ask
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Ann Carter is the leader people love to follow and if you listened to part 1 you’ll know why. In this episode, we have an open and candid discussion about racism in the workplace. I was reluctant to record this episode because quite frankly I didn’t know where to take the discussion and what questions to ask. I had to be open and honest about that feeling, so I put myself in a safe space with Ann Carter, and we had the conversation. Our intent is to encourage others to have similar conversations and make strides towards eradicating racism.
00:50 – Why I didn’t know what questions to ask
04:59 – The term to use
07:02 – Advice to leaders in the corporate world
13:54 – The conversations white people have
15:19 – Racism, discrimination, and bias
17:38 – The recruiting process
27:38 – The process of promotion
32:40 – Being silent
34:15 – Advice to the younger generation
38:22 – The value of diversity
Transcript
[Transcript]
Jan: [:[00:01:12] And she said to me, you know, Jen, I'm not comfortable having this episode go out there without talking about racism and my heart sank. I felt uncomfortable. And I felt uncomfortable admitting that I was uncomfortable and Carter is the kind of person that you feel safe with. So even if you feeling that axed and that feeling deep down in your gut, you can talk to her about it and it's going to be okay.
[:[00:02:18] So the purpose of this episode is to have a Frank open and honest discussion about racism in the workplace. And more importantly to provide actions that we can take right now to make a difference. In this episode, you'll hear an articulate beautifully. The difference between racism, discrimination and bias.
[:[00:03:07] Ann: [00:03:07] Well, Jen, I really commend you for allowing this kind of discussion to happen on your platform.
[:[00:03:49] Is a reason why we're having these discussions, but it's important that we have these discussions. Um, so thank you again for really [00:04:00] being very open and honest about your feelings. Uh, because I truly believe as I've talked to friends and colleagues, um, there is this underlying question about what, what do I do?
[:[00:04:42] I have, uh, African-American husband, uh, brother children. Um, so I speak from my viewpoint and I speak from my own place, um, in this journey and, um, with what we're facing. Well, and
[:[00:05:08] And that is, am I supposed to use the term black female or African-American? I am terrified that I am going to offend somebody. So let's start with the easy
[:[00:05:48] Being African-American they consider themselves Caribbean American or, uh, from Africa who say I'm African, I'm not really [00:06:00] American, but I'm also black. So I think the distinction is that black is a broader care categorization of many, uh, uh, Uh, of the diaspora who are from descendants from Africa, but may not be all American.
[:[00:06:43] Okay, thank you.
[:[00:07:10] In having the conversation with, with my team, what, what are some of the, the questions that need to be asked and answered? Um,
[:[00:07:50] If you don't understand something you, I mean, quite honestly it would be inauthentic to say, you know, everything about race, um, and that, you know, all [00:08:00] the answers, you know, all the solutions. Um, and to me, the first place is to check yourself, acknowledge what you know, or what you don't know, and even acknowledge that, yes, I need to learn more, which is what you just did.
[:[00:08:58] And. [00:09:00] Again, if you are a leader and you don't identify as black, you may not understand that, but that is the reality your employees are facing. So you have to listen, but listen with empathy and without judgment. And as you say, you have to educate yourself as well. How
[:[00:09:39] What is your reality? Maybe ask that question directly. Is that a good starting point?
[:[00:10:15] Uh, sometimes it may be better to do it in a, uh, informal setting. Um, one that isn't, uh, you know, come to my office and the doors close and everybody's, you know, outside peak and across their cubicle going, Oh, what just happened? Um, and again, it's around, Hey, in light of what's going on here, how are you feeling?
[:[00:11:07] Processes and policies and unspoken cultural norms that might be driving this, uh, call it conscious or unconscious bias or, um, it can be viewed as racism in the organization that you're leading. Um, and I'll. You know, talk about a little bit of examples of that, but it's also important to when you have these conversations, it to not to over promise and under deliver.
[:[00:12:17] I mean, there's nothing worse and just view it from the other side. I get called into my superiors office. He wants to have a candidate come. He or she wants to have a candidate conversation on race. What is the person on the other side going to think? Hmm. Do I say exactly how I feel? Uh, should I back off, um, is my career going to be in jeopardy?
[:[00:13:02] Jan: [00:13:02] Yes. And never before I really thought about, you know, I talk all the time about creating a safe environment because this is what high-performing teams need.
[:[00:13:38] People have to do something different. And I had a discussion with, uh, my friend, uh, actually she's my neighbor, a black female. And I asked her this very question. I said, what can we do? I need action that I could do now. And she said,
[:[00:13:57] Jan: [00:13:57] attention to the [00:14:00] conversations that white people have when black people are not in the room.
[:[00:14:06] Ann: [00:14:06] what, what, what,
[:[00:14:31] And then it confirms or reconfirms the stereotype and off you go, it's these little innuendos that just fuel that. And then I think what happens is not only does that become part of the culture, if it's accepted, but then it's passed down right. From generation to generation. So imagine if we could stop that because it's those little things that people say or do, or the little looks or comments don't, those are the things that can drive it.
[:[00:15:19] Ann: [00:15:19] So I, I think you, you bring up some good points and I really do want to clarify.
[:[00:15:57] Um, generally [00:16:00] speaking at the lowest. So where there's discrimination, we can all have discrimination, including black people against blacks or whites. Um, the racism that we see is really around that racial superiority and hierarchy mindset. Of the white race being at the top and all the other races below.
[:[00:17:10] Um, and I would say. Um, that you're right. We have to root it out in all aspects. And I want it, your, you, your neighbors. Um, question about our, our comment or statement about look critically at those conversations when there's only whites in the room are absolutely critical. I'll give you some examples. Um, In a company's recruiting process.
[:[00:18:28] Were you even on campus? Did you show those students the same level of, Hey, we want you, as you would have at another, uh, white majority university. Um, you know, cause if you don't have anybody who's gone to a black university trying to recruit at a black university, there may be different things you need to do.
[:[00:19:25] With a diverse candidate too, from which to choose from or better yet. Why are you not demanding it? Why are you not saying before I make a selection, I want to see a diverse pool of candidates because what happens behind the scene is, Oh, we just didn't have enough good candidates. So we just stopped. We just didn't go there.
[:[00:20:26] And then I'm going to give a third example and let's talk about year end Formance reviews and performance ranking. You know, that secret. Behind closed doors where, you know, managers and VPs are, you know, calibrating and ranking people.
[:[00:21:31] Generally cold words and excuses for placing, uh, African-Americans in lower boxes on those nine panels. And I think it's incumbent upon managers to say, okay, when I am placing my, my individuals, am I doing it with bias? You know, most people say, no, I'm not. I'm really, really candid and open and [00:22:00] I'm not, I'm not racist.
[:[00:22:33] Yes. I,
[:[00:22:57] Like now I need it right now. Go find me that [00:23:00] person right now. And then there's usually a followup conversation that says, Oh yeah, well, yeah, it'd be great if we could get a diversity candidate. So do what you can to make that happen. And then, you know, three weeks later you have no diversity candidates in the mix.
[:[00:23:31] So boom. Off they go. Now I'm not trying to defend. That behavior, but that's sort of how the conversation goes, right? But it's, it's, that's when the hiring manager has to stop and say no. Mr. Recruiter, let me tell you, we are not going to go through this process until you. Present me with some diversity at candidates.
[:[00:24:00] Ann: [00:24:00] VAT discussion. Yes. And I don't think there needs to be this trade-off between speed and finding the right candidate, because quite honestly, if your recruiter cannot find, and there are an abundance of qualified, diverse candidates out there, you need to find some new recruiters.
[:[00:24:44] If you're not being presented with them, you need to ask for them. And if your CA recruiter cannot give you that, then you need to find yourself some new recruiters.
[:[00:25:07] And that's where I think that's that extra step, that extra action that we don't always take. And that's again, that's another action we can take right now.
[:[00:25:29] And, and managers need to be looking around at their workforce rate today. Their direct reports, their direct reports, direct reports and putting together action plans today, not wait until somebody quits or there's some urgency business need. To start tackling the real issue of diversity, because if you look around and your entire leadership team is white males, then I would say [00:26:00] you've got some work to do.
[:[00:26:25] You know, all cultures, all races have, uh, are respected and have equal status. Where we need to go in, uh, in society and in it in corporate America as well is to dismantle those systems of selection and of allocation of capital, uh, wealth that is based on racial [00:27:00] hierarchy, because there are statistics out there.
[:[00:27:30] And so those are the kinds of things that I think, um, we have to dismantle and even in the promotion process now let's just talk about promotion process in corporate America. In many cases, I'm not saying this happens in old, uh, corporations. It is an unknown. It is, uh, Is is like an amoeba. Shh. It changes shape depending out what is going on.
[:[00:28:17] Then you've got a panel discussion and then you've got a final panel discussion. Cause we just gonna narrow they the, the, um, the, the number of applicants down. So why is that? And more than enough times, I've not seen. African-Americans be placed in that. Okay. I'm just going to place you in that position, hiring process, that's just internal hiring internal promotion.
[:[00:29:16] And I, I know Jan you're smiling cause you've seen it, you know, I seen it before. Um, and so it's really important that we, because once we do that, it's not just that it's good for African-Americans. It's good for everybody. W we're a much more transparent company and organization. The culture is not one to secrecy or do I know the club handshake in order to be able to move up the ladder?
[:[00:30:29] Jan: [00:30:29] And that's why we have to. Get through this discomfort that we might be feeling to have these conversations, to expose these systems that are out there and processes
[:[00:31:00] [00:31:00] The humanity of us all. And that if you are in a position of power and of influence, what are you going to do with that power influence? Because sitting back and being silent, when you see something that is biased, Is not changing anything. And I would pause it that sitting back and being silent is promoting a system of racism.
[:[00:32:07] As long as we're coming from a good place from an authentic place, you coming from the heart, then it's okay to have. To have these discussions, but when you see that kind of behavior taking place, you're right. You, you cannot, you can no longer be silent about it. And really what this what's happening in the world right now, black lives matter.
[:[00:32:54] Something doesn't feel quite right. Talk about
[:[00:33:34] Demand, for example, a diverse slate of candidates, um, or that you have the right to look at your team and say, Hey, do I have the most diverse team around me? And if I don't, why not? And what can I do about it? And also it's about being vulnerable. Yeah. So you might put your [00:34:00] foot in your mouth one day, but I'd rather, um, That you say something and get educated, then say nothing and then continue to support a system that is not working for equality.
[:[00:34:17] Jan: [00:34:17] you've held senior executive level positions with major corporations in this country, multiple industries. You are a tremendous success. You're a great leader. People love working for you. You've got it all. You've got the, the content, the intelligence, you know what you're doing? You're a good leader.
[:[00:34:58] Ann: [00:34:58] Great question. [00:35:00] Um, I think in general, uh, my advice would be similar to whether I was mentoring a young black.
[:[00:35:45] Um, and to number one, if you have that voice in the back of your head going, Oh gosh, I'm not so sure. I don't know if I can do [00:36:00] this. I don't know if I should go after it, not try to quiet that voice. Because I'm telling you, if you've gotten this far in your career, you can go further, um, believe in yourself.
[:[00:37:02] Take advantage of opportunities for learning for growth, uh, programs that are put in place. You're not qualified. Don't think you're not worthy. Sign up for those programs. Get as much under your belt as you can, because those that trainee is invaluable and will carry on. As you grow in your career.
[:[00:37:30] And I think, you know, and your voice is so important for young people, not just women, but coming up in the workforce because it's hard for people to become something that they can't see. I think there's a quote out there along those lines somewhere, and it, people need to need to see, to see you. In the role in the executive role, um, that you're in so that they can look at that and say, see if [00:38:00] she can do it.
[:[00:38:22] The other thought that I had as we're going through our conversation here is this underlying thought that many leaders out there may not truly understand the value of diversity. And what running a diverse team looks like and feels like. And I will tell you, honestly, that I probably 15 years ago, I would have had trouble seeing an articulating the value of a diverse team, knowing that it's the right [00:39:00] thing to do.
[:[00:39:28] It's and it really is diversity of thought. You know, when, when you've got people from different backgrounds, whether it's race, whether it's socioeconomic, whether it's, um, age, whatever it is, the value of all that diversity coming together creates such a high performing team or the foundation for a tremendously successful team.
[:[00:39:57] Ann: [00:39:57] Yes. I, you know, the, the [00:40:00] arrogant way of thinking is that creativity and innovation just comes from one group of people and they all have to think alike. They have to want to do things the same way and, uh, like the same things conform to a norm.
[:[00:41:13] If we only looked at ideas. And innovations from a small group that was at the top. And to me, that's the ROI because as a company or as part of a team, you've just left a lot of money and opportunity on the table for someone else who does recognize diversity to pick up and run with.
[:[00:41:50] I would like to send a message to our audience and it's simply this take action. Now, do something [00:42:00] now. Stop those conversations that are happening. The innuendo, the informal discussions. Embrace diversity. And do it now and closing comments from you today,
[:[00:42:24] The work has just started, um, is not going to happen overnight. The systems that we put in place did not just come up or spring up. A year ago. Um, they have been in place for a long time, um, and we need to be diligent and we need everybody's support. Uh, we need everyone to be allies, um, and, um, to take action as you just called for.
[:[00:42:52] Jan: [00:42:52] Yeah. And thank you, Anne, for giving me the safe space to be vulnerable and explore an area [00:43:00] that up until this conversation I was uncomfortable with, and now I can say I am not, and I am definitely more educated. Now than I was at the beginning of the podcast. So thank you, Anne Carta.
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