The Future of Automotive Leadership: Gen Z and Millennial Views on Mary Buchzeiger

[Transcript]

Jan Griffiths: 00:08

Welcome to the automotive leaders podcast, where we help you prepare for the future by sharing stories, insights and skills from leading voices in the automotive world with a mission to transform this industry together. I'm your host Jan Griffiths, that passionate, rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales, with over 35 years of experience in our beloved auto industry, and a commitment to empowering fellow leaders to be their best authentic selves. Stay true to yourself, be you and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership. Let's dive in!

Jan Griffiths: 00:58

It's time to deconstruct the Mary Buchzeiger episode. I wanted a different perspective. I wanted to get a Gen Z perspective, a millennial perspective, a male perspective and a female perspective from two rising stars in the automotive industry. And so I reached out to my friends at OESA to the Young Leaders Council, and we are going to talk to Mary Mason from AirBoss and Mark Hebertr from Woodbridge. In this episode, we'll talk about what they think about the leadership traits of Mary Buchzeiger. What actually landed with them, what really resonated with them. Would they work for her? I wanted their open and honest perspective. What do they like? What do they not like? What did they see as the future of leadership in this industry? Mary And Mark, welcome to the show.

Mary: 01:47

Thank you so much for having us.

Mark: 01:49

Yeah, thanks, Jan. Really excited. Thank you.

Jan Griffiths: 01:51

Mary. You work for Airboss. So tell us a little bit about what you do.

Mary: 01:56

So I am a Senior HR business partner with Airboss actually started as an intern a little over four years ago and have worked my way up. I support our employees with all kinds of different employee relations issues, benefits, that kind of thing. I work at a plant. So support both plant and corporate employees. They graduated in 2019 from Oakland University.

Jan Griffiths: 02:18

Are you technically Gen Z?

Mary: 02:21

Yes, I am.

Jan Griffiths: 02:22

Mark, tell us about yourself.

Mark: 02:24

I'm the Vice President of Sales for Woodbridge for the America. So, I have the North American, South America. And Woodbridge is a provider of global material technologies. We do applications in automotive, commercial, recreational packaging healthcare. So, really diverse customer base, and it makes it a lot of challenges. A lot of fun. I have it's such a wide berth outside of the auto industry and in the auto industry also.

Jan Griffiths: 02:45

And you're not Gen Z, are you?

Mark: 02:47

I am not. No, definitely not. No. I think I am like the oldest millennial possible. I'm like the the wizard millennial maybe or something like that.

Jan Griffiths: 02:57

But being a wizard with comes wisdom, right.

Mark: 03:01

You know, we're striving for wisdom.

Jan Griffiths: 03:03

Striving for wisdom. Okay. Well, I'm glad you're both here. And we are going to deconstruct the interview with Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International. When most people see a roadblock, Mary Buchzeiger seize an opportunity, her infectious optimism and willingness to step into uncertain situations have propelled her career in the automotive industry. What I want to know when I'm going to you first Mary. What was it about that entire interview about Mary's leadership that resonated with you the most? What really stood out to you?

Mary: 03:41

For me, it was the culture of trust and accountability that she fostered. I thought that it was really meaningful, that they can call each other out in meetings, right and say that, you know, you're off topic, we need to table this for a later time. That's something that I think a lot of people can work on, myself included. So I really appreciated her strategies with that. And the trust that she has with her team, too. She talked about her senior leadership going for a couple of weeks without pay when they're going through a hard time. And to have that trust and that drive for them to continue to show up each day and really put in 110% is very important thought that resonated the most with me.

Jan Griffiths: 04:22

Yeah, those are two excellent points. Mary, I agree with you. And I know you're early into your career. But do you see that as a challenge in developing that kind of leadership and that that kind of environment?

Mary: 04:35

I do see it as a struggle in something to really develop into the culture. It starts at the top, but you have to get buy in from all of the employees, right, all the way down from the production workers up to the CEO. And building that structure of trust. And accountability, I think can definitely be a struggle.

Jan Griffiths: 04:53

Mark, tell us what resonated with you the most.

Mark: 04:56

The trust thing was huge. And I think we'll definitely dig into that quite a bit, but I really I loved her self awareness. I'm an engineer, she talks about being an engineer and that kind of methodical approach of speaking with data, needing to pivot. And she talks about that, that pivot when you know, you've set this path forward and happens to not be the path anymore, and that, you know, fearlessness to be able to pivot off of it. You know, as a leader, I think a lot of times people expect what you say to be the only Guiding Light. And when you say, hey, look, I'm changing the guiding light. That's where a lot of that trust from the team has to come in. But I don't know, I love that self awareness. And I think she seems to be really resilient person. And I got a lot of strength out of you know, what she said, and I've had met her once or twice in the past, but I love that the strength but not the toughness, or roughness, you know, it's like a confidence strength, he doesn't have to be mean to anybody. She's a strong, confident person, but she doesn't have to prove that in every conversation you have with her. So I thought that was fantastic.

Jan Griffiths: 05:56

You can be strong and direct, and you can be the CEO of an automotive company. And you don't have to be an aggressive asshole, do you?

Mark: 06:05

Exactly, yeah.

Jan Griffiths: 06:06

I think it's a mindset. I think that in many auto companies, the model of a great leader has been somebody who has been overly aggressive. And quite frankly, somebody that says this is the way it should be. And this idea of pivoting off because of something that's going on in the industry, or something is happening in the company and having the strength to say we need to take a different path. Now. That's a rare leadership traits. Talking about pivots. And Mark, this one's for you. Mary is a huge supporter of now onshoring with manufacturing. Now I remember when I started my career, particularly, I'd say mid career in purchasing, it was all about, I've got 50% of my spend in China, look what a great purchasing person I am. And now it's like, oh, not so much. I mean, takes a lot of a lot of guts to actually make that that pivot, but not only she made the pivot, I mean, she's public about it, and she's taking action and making it happen. How did that land with you, Mark?

Mark: 07:13

I think it's got to be a tough decision to make because companies invested so much time and energy in offshoring, like you said, there's been so much effort in that. And they've realized these cost savings for a very long time. We have all the labor challenges that we have here, we've depleted our internal supply chain, and it's going to be a challenge to bring that work back here. But to see someone that ever do it, I think is, is really what needs to happen. I hope more companies follow suit and a see more work come back here. I think if you're producing the goods and selling them out of this country to control the manufacturing to have it be within the US, I think it's just so incredibly important.

Jan Griffiths: 07:50

Very, we talked about the trust and accountability and calling people out. Did you catch the bit was they'll throw a squirrel at her. Did you catch that?

Mary: 08:00

I did. I was actually thinking about picking up a squirrel and an elephant and kept putting them in our conference rooms.

Jan Griffiths: 08:06

But what do you what do you think about that? I mean, you're early on in your in your career? Mark and I both know that. That doesn't happen. Mark, have you ever seen that happen in a meeting ever?

Mark: 08:15

No, I've, I've wanted to throw things at people in meetings before, but I don't think I've ever gone that far.

Jan Griffiths: 08:22

Mary, I'm very interested to know, you know, you're in HR, you're early on in your career. Tell us how does that sit with you? What do you think about that?

Mary: 08:30

For me, it's kind of making it a light hearted way to stop the conversation, put it back in its track, right?. It's really easy for somebody to overhaul the conversation and to make it about their priority or themselves or whatever the situation might be. And it's really easy to distract and throw everybody off in the room. And then at the end of the meeting, you didn't get anything done. Or maybe you did, but it wasn't what you set out to do. So I think it's a light hearted way, especially she talked about it can taken a while to develop that. But once you have that kind of camaraderie with your team, so that they're not taking it personally, there's no offense taken. But yeah, you're right, I got a squirrel thrown at me it was kind of going off track. I think is a great way of curtailing that behavior. And to do it immediately to it's not something where you come up a couple hours later and say hey, you know, in that meeting, you really are a little disruptive. It's important to stop in that tracks.

Jan Griffiths: 09:26

Well, it goes right back to your point about trust and accountability. Because you can't do something like that. You can't just start throwing squirrels at people. And just for clarity, we're talking about a cuddly toy. We're not talking about actual real life squirrel. I don't want to have 15 emails tomorrow about squirrels. So but you've got to have trust for people to feel comfortable in a room where that could happen. That speaks volumes. The trust is there. But from an accountability standpoint, this is what happens right? We're in a meeting, we know somebody's going way off track, either somebody wants to be a complete asshole about it and call them out for it and show how tough they are. Or people don't want to call the other person out. They let him go, particularly, if that person is the boss. Nobody feels comfortable telling the boss, you know, I'm sick of your personal story of 30 years ago when you work for GM and built this tool or whatever it is. And nobody wants to say that. So so what happens is you waste time, you waste time, the meeting is less effective. We have to be able to hold not only ourselves accountable, but to hold each other accountable in a positive way. And that simple little act of hurling a cuddly toy at somebody to signify that they're going off track. And to do it in a way that injects some sort of humor, I think is very clever, and very powerful. What did you think about that, Mark?

Mark: 11:01

Yeah, I took that note as well. I mean, I thought that the trust that that must take to throw a squirrel at your CEO or another member of the whether it's appear or not appear, right. I think it's just an incredibly brave move. And the levity part of it's fantastic. And it's nice to break up a meeting with celebrity, but really, holding a meeting is an art form anymore, right? There's so many of them, that's all we do is sit on teams calls and zoom calls, and etc. To be able to effectively run a meeting to keep people on task to have an agenda or walk into it with an agenda and to leave having accomplished that agenda. It's its own art form. Right. So it's its own form of leadership, I think that to see her take control of those meetings, or at least, you know, spice them up like that. I love it. I thought it was fantastic.

Jan Griffiths: 11:44

Yeah. And she's saying to her team, look, you can hold me accountable to you and to the process and to the business. I am not above you, I am not above being called out by anybody. And that, again, is incredibly powerful. And it builds trust. And it builds psychological safety. And the number one criteria of a high performance team is psychological safety. Where you can show up and you can put your ideas forward. And yes, you can throw squirrels. You talked about meetings mark, and we're in meetings all the time. One of the things that we struggle with, particularly in this industry, in our in all industries, but I think more so in the auto industry is that this idea of we love to be in the weeds. And we've got a lot of reasons to be in the weeds right now, with Chip shortages, supply chain shortages, manpower issues, it's very easy for leaders to push aside the strategic discussions, the longer term discussions, where should this business be a year from now, three years from now, five years from now. And Mary has an operating system, which she got from the EOS system, which is usually for smaller businesses, more like businesses like mine, like small entrepreneurs. But she started with that many, many years ago, and she still uses it. And that framework works for her. And she makes absolutely sure that they still have those strategic discussions, even when the world is falling apart literally. Mary, how did that land with you? What did you think about that?

Mary: 13:19

I think it's really important. She talked about working on the business, instead of working in the business. And I think that's a really clear distinction to make. It's something that personally, I could definitely do as well. And it all ties back to that accountability to you're not going to reschedule the meeting, because something else came up that you know, every quarter you're going to meet, you're going to talk strategy, what are we working on the business and holding each other to that and that pushing it or not letting it go to the wayside? It's really the only way to drive a company forward, right is to keep that vision and to continually check in, you know, meet the quarter meet the year, I think she said three years and 10 year goals as well. But I really liked that framework of working on the business instead of just gonna

Jan Griffiths: 14:04

Mark, you're VP of sales, you got to be right, you're right in the front line. How do you how do you do that? How do you keep your team focused on the strategic and the day to day?

Mark: 14:17

You have to be deliberate about it. You set those goals, whether it's for me, you know, sales targets, or whether it's for a company, whatever your long term, your 10-year plan, your objectives are, you set targets and you measure against them, and you hold the accountability piece of it. And if you don't plan for it, and you don't put it in your calendar and you say we're going to review this monthly quarterly, and you let people know what the expectations are. How to report out on that. What does achievement look like? What do we do when there's not achievement? It's a very collaborative and safe space to to explore and meet these goals in a number of different ways. They don't have to be done the way the CEO wants them done or the way I want it done. But there's still a goal and people have to meet it and we're going to talk about it regularly, and we're going to talk when we fall short. And we're gonna talk about how to make up the difference. And when we don't, we're gonna talk about, you know, the accountability associated with it.

Jan Griffiths: 15:08

Mary is a female CEO of an automotive company, and her husband is a stay at home dad. Mary Mason, what do you think about that?

Mary: 15:18

I think the support that he's shown her throughout the years, is critical. It's often underestimated just how much work goes into raising a family and coordinating schedules and supporting your kids to getting them to sporting events and choir band practice or whatever else they might be involved in. That it takes a tremendous amount of work. So for her to be able to rely on him and to travel out of the country and know that he's home with the kids. He's getting them to where they need to go, he's cooking dinner for them, whatever else they may need. I think that's an incredible support system that they have worked out.

Jan Griffiths: 15:54

Yeah, she openly admits it's not easy. And we banter back and forth about my experience in that area. And it is not easy. I think, just you have to be two partners, you're in this together, and there's no right or wrong, who should work who should stay at home. There's an agreement between two people of how life will flow for them. And it may change over time. Mark, what do you think about that?

Mark: 16:19

Well, first of all, I don't think I'd want to fight her husband, or her or her. We made the collective decision for my wife to stop working like about three years ago. And it has been fantastic. There's a number of great things about it. But it's not an easy decision, like like he had a career and interests and etc. My wife is a teacher, she has a master's degree, she's very smart, she's very, very good at a job. We got to the point where travel gets to be such a huge part of the job. And we're spending more money in daycare and after school programs and babysitters and whatnot, it just becomes a financial decision. And God bless the families that have two working parents. I really don't understand how it's even possible. We've got two boys, they're eight and 11. Supers active playing two sports at a time and all kinds of different activities. And we can barely keep up with them and their activities and their lives with only one working parents. So my wife is the excellent rock of our household. I don't know how we would do it without her. I mean, think of the scramble that it was before the kids got as busy as they did. And I'm just so lucky that she is willing to put up with me and do all that. It's tough on that spouse, it's you have to pause once well, and remember how tough it is on them. And they tried my best to get home for soccer games and things and be a good parent, it's got to stop and like, oh man, Am I really a good spouse to my wife and start doing what's right for for her and what she's done, you know, her kind of sacrifice for the family because I'm sure she would like to travel and do the things that I get to do for work as well.

Jan Griffiths: 17:49

One thing I see changing. And Mark, you can tell me if you see this or not? Mary, you would probably, what I'm about to see, you would expect nothing less, I'm gonna guess. But let's see.

Jan Griffiths: 18:00

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Jan Griffiths: 18:30

When I started my career, if my daughter was sick, I would never say I would never call into work and say I'm staying home because my child is sick. Never. Because the the conversation would be "See, that's what happens when you put a woman in that job. They take time off to take care of the kids." Don't think for one second, that that conversation doesn't happen. I've heard that conversation. So I didn't want to be the person that they were talking about. Now, when I was in my last corporate role, I noticed that the the younger men, the fathers had no problem saying to me, Oh, it's my it's my turn. I have a sick child at home. It's my turn. And what that meant was, both parents were working but they took it in turns taking the time off. And when I started my career, there's no way a man would ever do that, ever say that he was staying home to take care of a child. And so I see that changing and it warms my heart every time I see a man step up to his responsibilities as a parent and you just said it, Mark, as a parent as a husband. And understanding that you're a whole human being there. There's this thing called life and there are many facets to it. You can't be all work. Have you seen that, Mark? Have you seen that change?

Mark: 19:57

You know, I have for sure I don't know, if it's, we've come all the way there, I'm sure. As generations progressed, it's going to just get more and more regular and post COVID. And people staying home for different reasons, you know, it's become way more normal. But from from just a gender equity standpoint, I hope the tide is turning, I'm sure not not fast enough for most people's liking. I love you know, you get the occasional employee, whether it's male or female, but like a male employee would come in and say, kind of like hand in hand nervous to have a conversation and you say, You know what, you know, what's going on? Well, I'd like to take some time off to coach this soccer team. So I'm gonna have to leave at Thursdays at 4:30, whatever you like, yeah, that's fantastic, please, that's great that you do that. There's still a stigma of like choosing your family over work during whether it's work hours or not work hours. I think you'll find that if you're the kind of person who wants to do that, you're gonna have to start your fight to find the right company culture that is supportive of your family life as well.

Jan Griffiths: 20:58

Mary, listening to this conversation. What do you think? Are you just horrified you think? Well, of course, you guys need to step up as much as the women. Well, tell us, what do you think about this conversation?

Mary: 21:08

I've grown up in a different dynamic than you did, obviously. And by the time I entered the workforce, it's very different. But we still see it pre COVID, there were so many women working in the workplace. And as COVID happened, I think they're projecting that that number of women will not reenter until like 2030, maybe even further out. So as much as it has shifted, and I've see it at work all the time, right, we have both men and women that will call in and say, you know, I have to stay home, my kids sick. But even with that change, I think it's still proportionately affects women more than it does men. But like Mark was saying, you know, it's a demographic change, it's something that will continue to improve, in my opinion, and kind of even out.

Jan Griffiths: 21:56

I think, as the old style leadership model becomes extinct. And believe me, I'm doing everything in my power to make that happen. And as, as we transform this industry, and the leadership model in this industry, it will evolve. Because if we don't, we're not going to have Gen Z, we're not going to have a workforce, there will be no transformation, because there will be no workforce.

Mark: 22:19

I think if the corporation's want, they want the Mary Mason's of the world, the future stars, they're going to need to accommodate. And when you come in with that expectation of like, this is how I'm going to be treated, I'm going to do this, or this is what my family is going to come first. And you enter your career that way. I think it's fantastic. You know, I hope that that is something that comes out of whether it's post COVID, or just the change of generations is, you know, people focus more on the families and our courage to do so really.

Jan Griffiths: 22:44

Mary, what are the leadership traits? For the future? What are the leadership traits that you want to see in a leader, you represent the future generation of our workforce? It's really important, I think, for our audience to understand, from your perspective, what are some of the critical leadership traits?

Mary: 23:04

For me, my top three are resilience, trust and empowerment. You need a resilient leader, especially in automotive to handle all of the things that the industry throws at us that life and supply chain and labor shortages and all kinds of different issues we've been throwing at us lately. And you need somebody to put trust into and demonstrate that resilience from a leadership perspective. And trust, like I was saying with what Mary has fostered with her team, I think it's really important to have that relationship and repertoire with your employees, to be able to have them give you honest feedback to get criticism. You don't want sycophants on the team, right? You can't just agree to everything. So really having that trusting relationship to push back where necessary and also to be able to rely on your team. And then empowerment as well. My leaders have really empowered me at my company. That's something that I greatly appreciate. It's how you build future leadership, for sure.

Jan Griffiths: 24:06

I think empowerment is is a huge issue, because you talk to any leader and they'll say, Oh, I empower my team. And then next thing, you know, they're the most ridiculous micromanager on the planet, but in their own head in their own mind. They practice empowerment. You got to give people things that really throw them in the deep end, and let them sink or swim and provide that that safe environment so that they can fail and experience and learn. That's what empowerment is. You can either not just words that you say or something that you put on a values list and you don't actually practice it. And from what I've seen with Gen Z coming into the workforce right now is you have no tolerance for this. Oh, well, you know, you better stay in that position for a year or two or five years before we move you to the next one because you're not ready. You got to do your time. That used to be something that we were told all the time you got to do your time in that position. I'm thinking, it doesn't sit well with you, Mary, does it?

Mary: 25:02

No, it doesn't. I think we're all individuals. And there are people that would really excel after being in a role for maybe only six to nine months. And it's time to look at what kind of stretch projects can we give them? What else can they take on? Not necessarily promotion at that time, but what else can they take on to developing continue towards that path. And then there's other people that might be a very good performer, but they're just not ready to take on that next step. So I think it's really important to take the individuals in that just have a check sheet that says that, you know, you have to be an entry level position for three years, and then you have to move into the next level for four years. And then we can look at like a manager level, I think it's important to take things and take people as they are.

Jan Griffiths: 25:47

Yeah, absolutely. So message to leadership out there. If you've got a policy or procedure, and your HR department says you got to stay in a position for a certain amount of time, you might as well rip it up right now. Mark, what about you? What are the most important leadership traits for you?

Mark: 26:03

So I'm lucky enough to have a great boss. I worked for him for a long time and a couple of different companies. And I've got a great executive leadership team. And for me, it comes down to trust. So I've heard your podcast several times, I'm, you know, familiar, we've talked about the 21 traits of leaders, and they are all essential. For me, it is trust. So you know, you get to a point in your life where you say, you know, I'm the only one in my household working, I've got kids to feed, I need to trust you that you're looking out for me, I need that you to trust me that you think I'm doing a good job. And we're to have transparent, honest feedback. And really, I need to trust them. Do I trust our capabilities as leaders? Are they are they going to lead this company to be successful, right? So I trust my leadership, that they're making the right decisions, that they're setting their company up for success, and that I can retire from here. And I'm not going to be scrambling to find some other job when they do something I don't agree with or whatever. So I think from a leadership standpoint, as long as I have clear goals and objectives that I've been told, what the expectation is, and I'm given the freedom to go try to meet those challenges, however, I want to, I will be happy with that, like, I like making order to chaos, I don't need things to be perfect. I'll do my best to try to make it perfect or strive for perfection. But if you don't trust that, I'm able to do that, and I don't trust that you're gonna take care of me, if I if I do that, then it's not going to work out. So, trust for me is huge.

Jan Griffiths: 27:29

Yeah. You said something about, I have to put food on the table. And here's something that leaders often don't think about. And that is, being a leader in any company, it's an awesome responsibility, because you have to say, on whether the person gets a paycheck. When you control the paycheck, you control their lives, you control their ability to pay their mortgage, to put food on the table, and to live the life they want to live. And so many people don't realize that power that they have over people's lives. And it's something that you've got to be very careful with. And it's something that you have to respect. And, I always knew that, as outspoken as I was in my career, and not all the time. But it was a lot of the time. But I always knew there was a line, that I would not push my boss too far, because I knew he had the power to fire me. And I had a mortgage and a child, I was a single mom, I'm not going to push that guy so far, that he's going to be so pissed off that he's going to fire me. Imagine if we could all come to work without that fear. Without that underlying fear, or if I upset this person too much, you know, there's a chance that they could fire me or if I upset one of his or her in the inner circle. If I upset one of those people that then my life could could go badly, things could go really bad. And I don't want that to happen. We put this filter on our minds and what we say because we don't want to be judged, and we don't want to get fired. But imagine a world where the trust was there. The empowerment was there. The leadership was there. The environment was there where you could show up every day be who you are. Put your voice forward. Imagine what that would feel like. Mary, what do you think that'd be awesome, wouldn't it?

Mary: 29:30

It would, you know, I think that it ties back into trust and empowerment, to be able to focus on what you're there to do and to not have to worry about voicing your opinion professionally, but giving feedback and pushing back. Because ultimately sometimes the person that has the ultimate responsibility and the ultimate say isn't right, and what they have in mind and the paths that they want to go down isn't right and you can fight that and give feedback but Like you said, Jan, there is a line where you have to stop. And ultimately, they're the one calling the shots, right. And I think that if you're able to continue to push, it would help better the business, and especially to dealing with leaders who have egos, because not everybody has been able to build the kind of environment that Mary has been able to build. The people that have egos, I think that you can't push them nearly as hard. Right? So they're getting less feedback from their team. And they're more likely to have people just say, yes, let's do it. Go with the flow.

Jan Griffiths: 30:35

Yeah. And there's so much power in a human creativity. It's, there's so much there that you as a leader can completely unleash to the benefit of your leadership, and your mission and your company, and your team. But you've got to be able to provide that environment. And Mark, it sounds like you've got some of that where you work.

Mark: 30:56

Yeah, I think, you know, as close to that Utopia you see described as I'm probably going to get, or as anyone's probably going to get new career. Everyone always has a boss, right? Even you're the CEO, you got a board of directors and you're accountable to someone. I've been lucky. And I've worked for some great men and women throughout my career. I've seen some really good examples. And I've tried to pull from every single one of them. And I think it's a lot of like, how did that make me feel when that situation came up? Okay, I never want to make someone feel like that. Or I always wanna make someone feel like that. I want to amount I want to manage that way. I want to handle these situations this way. But I've had some great examples and some great mentors in the industry that I tried to try to draw from.

Jan Griffiths: 31:36

I like what you just said that you said, how does that make me feel? And when I'm working with clients, I always joke and talk about the "F bomb". And you know, immediately they go, Oh, what's she gonna swear? I say no, no, no, you need to start asking people how they feel. That's the F bomb, you need to start dropping? And it could be how do you feel about a goal? How do you feel about a strategy? Or how do you feel about something that just happened? But we've got to tap into the emotional side of people. It's not all about the metrics. There's this emotional component that has to come along with it. I'm doing everything I can with my clients to encourage more of that conversation. Do you see that marriage? Do you see that shift in leadership where people are starting to talk more about the emotional side?

Mary: 32:21

I definitely think so. I've heard a lot recently, like your perception is your reality. So how you're perceiving something, even if that's not the message that I intended to give, but if the recipient is perceiving it that way, that is, how they're going to feel about it. And so taking that step back and asking people, how they feel about projects, they're working on goals, policies, think it's really important, it's also helps to build more engagement, because they're going to feel more valued, and you're letting them know that they're valued, and to some extent, also helps with trust and helps to empower them as well, because it forces them to pause. And how do I feel about this? Am I doing this because I think it's the right thing to do the smart thing to do, or am I doing this? Because that's the way that we've always doneit.

Jan Griffiths: 33:12

Good point. Well, in closing today, I have to ask you, since we've been deconstructing Mary Buchzeiger's episode, so, Mary Mason, would you work for Mary at Lucerne?

Mary: 33:24

Yes, I would. She sounds like a fantastic leader.

Jan Griffiths: 33:27

Mark, would you?

Mark: 33:28

I would work for her. I would not fight her. Yes.

Jan Griffiths: 33:32

I love that. That's the quote for this episode. I would work for her but I will not fight her.

Mark: 33:38

I'll throw a squirrel at her maybe but not.

Jan Griffiths: 33:40

But I wouldn't want to get in the ring with her, right? Yes, yes. Okay, lovely. Well, Mary Mason, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mary: 33:48

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Jan.

Jan Griffiths: 33:50

Mark Herbert. Thank you so much.

Mark: 33:53

My pleasure. Thank you.

Jan Griffiths: 33:59

Thank you for listening to the automotive leaders podcast. Click the Listen link in the show notes to subscribe for free on your platform of choice. And don't forget to download the 21 traits of authentic leadership PDF by clicking on the link below. And remember, stay true to yourself, be you and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership.