Episode 152
Behind Martinrea’s Strength: Pat D’Eramo’s No-Fear, People-first Leadership
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When Pat D'Eramo entered the auto industry four decades ago, leadership looked very different. Power meant control. Leaders gave orders, and people followed—or else. But even back then, Pat knew there had to be a better way.
That mindset was reinforced early in his career, thanks to a unique experience at Saturn. Unlike the traditional plants of the time, Saturn was built on collaboration. And it showed Pat what leadership could look like when people are trusted, not micromanaged. One mentor in particular left a mark—showing Pat the value of coaching, not commanding.
That experience shaped everything that followed.
Now CEO of Martinrea International, Pat leads with that same belief: give people room to grow, back them up when things go wrong, and never punish someone for trying to do the right thing. He talks openly in this episode about moments where he could've fired someone—but chose not to. Because if they've learned from it, they come back stronger. And strong people build strong companies.
That philosophy was put to the test during the toughest times: COVID shutdowns, supply chain breakdowns, EV delays, and now tariffs. Instead of reacting with fear, Pat leaned into the structure—clear goals, tight alignment, and regular check-ins across teams. That's how Martinrea stayed focused while the industry shifted around them.
But Pat isn't just focused on one company. He's looking at the industry as a whole—and doesn't sugarcoat it. China's ahead. North America isn't ready to build a car from scratch. And government policy? It's a mess. But he offers a way forward: unified action across the USMCA, strategic investment, and—above all—a culture that supports innovation—not fear.
But Pat isn't all business. Jan takes a moment to explore the personal side—his favorite bands, his go-to shows, and even his love for sci-fi audiobooks during long drives. It's a reminder that leadership isn't just what you do at work—it's how you carry yourself through everything.
Themes discussed in this episode:
- Why empathetic leadership drives long-term success in automotive
- Creating a culture where mistakes lead to growth, not termination
- Building a resilient culture through crises like COVID, EV delays, and tariffs
- Why treating people with respect is the foundation of organizational performance
- North America’s EV supply chain crisis and what’s fueling the breakdown
- Why North America can’t build a car alone—and what needs to change
- The leadership traits needed to lead through uncertainty and drive transformation in the auto industry.
Featured guest: Pat D’Eramo
What he does: Pat D’Eramo is the CEO of Martinrea International and a member of its Board of Directors. He brings over four decades of experience in the automotive industry, with deep expertise in metal forming and parts manufacturing. Before joining Martinrea, Pat served as President of Dana Corporation’s Commercial Vehicle Technology group, where he led global operations across the Americas, Europe, India, Australia, and China. Since 2014, he has overseen Martinrea’s global operations, including manufacturing, engineering, purchasing, logistics, sales, and business development—playing a key role in the company’s continued growth and performance.
Episode Highlights:
[01:55] How I Lead: Pat shares the kind of leadership that gets people to take risks, own the plan, and show up stronger—because they know you’ll stand with them.
[04:09] Built Different from Day One: Early in his career, Pat got a front-row seat to collaborative leadership at Saturn—an experience that shaped his people-first approach while the rest of the industry stuck to command and control.
[08:35] Building Strong Leaders: Pat shares why he doesn’t fire people for one mistake—and how those moments often lead to the strongest leaders in the company.
[15:01] More Than Just Posters: At Martinrea, values like respect and “leave it better” aren’t just words on a wall—they’re lived every day, from the shop floor to the boardroom.
[17:32] What China Got Right: Pat explains how Martinrea led through crisis after crisis—then calls out the uncomfortable truth: China’s winning because they plan long-term, and we don’t.
[28:22] Not the Boss, the Guide: After narrowing down 21 leadership traits, Pat lands on the one that defines his style—and it’s all about supporting others, not commanding them.
[30:25] Pat Off the Clock: From classic rock to sci-fi and action series, this quick dive into Pat’s personal side reminds us that even CEOs need great music, movies, and a good book on the road.
Top Quotes:
[03:05] Pat: “I always tell people a bad decision is better than no decision 'cause at least we learn something. I acknowledge, and to an extent, almost encourage some level of mistakes, because people learn from mistakes. Just don't sink the ship while you're at it. But if you don't have that environment, people won't take risks. And if you really wanna move ahead — in our business in particular, which is a very tough business — you have to have people who are willing to stick their necks out, and they'll do that if they know you have their back.”
[09:01] Pat: “Over my career, we've had some major issues that came up because some people make mistakes. Okay? There's a school of thought where — and I've been challenged — why don't you fire that person? They made this huge mistake that cost us dollars. And I say, " Prior to this mistake, that person was a rock star. But suddenly they make a mistake, and that's what we're gonna do?" "That's what I would do," Somebody would say. And then I say, "Why would I take a person who's learned the most valuable lesson that they could possibly learn — know what not to do next time, and what to do next time correctly to never make a mistake like that again, and give them to a competitor? Why would I do that? We have a stronger person.”
[20:55] Pat: “No matter who you are, if you have any EV activity, you've been hurt. Okay? It just depends on what level. So now you've compounded that. And now the tariffs hit. So, what do you do to lead through that? It's getting everybody in a straight line. This is what we're going to do. Talking about it every day. Are we ahead? Are we behind? Where's our weak point? Who's not on board? What do we have to do? Who do we have to escalate to? What do you need me, as the CEO, to do? Whatever it is.”
[23:40] Pat: “If you said, 'Okay, how do we catch up with China?" To me, it's three steps. First step is — and I know this is controversial — but you do have to inhibit their ability to come to North America initially to give you time. Yeah. Then the government has to participate. That's how the Chinese did it. And I don't think we should do it like they did it, but our government needs to quit fighting about the border and tariffs and take the money that's being wasted and ask for investment.”
[25:40] Pat: “We need you to allow us to do what we know to do. Because if you set targets in front of this industry, and you've seen it for years, you don't need to tell the OEMs what to build. You need to tell the OEMs what they need to do, what targets they need to reach, and they know what to build. Right now, they don't know what to build. They really don't know what to do in some ways. So, we're waiting on the new portfolio. The RFQs are slow because no one wants to invest in another vehicle until they know what it should be. It's a mess, and we need support, and we're not getting that. Yeah. And these tariffs are just making it worse.”
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
[Transcript]
[:Stay true to yourself, be you, and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership. Let's dive in.
This episode is brought to you by Lockton. Lockton redefines business insurance and people solutions with a personal touch. Their global team of 11,000 is driven by independence, not quarters, to tailor success for your business. Discover the Lockton difference, where your goals become their mission.
Independence it's not just how you think but how you act.
Today, I am thrilled to bring on the show a leader, the CEO of a major global tier one company who truly understands the value of culture. He is Pat D'Eramo, the CEO of Martinrea International, a tier one supplier focusing on lightweight structures and propulsion systems. Pat, welcome to the show.
[:[00:01:55] Jan Griffiths: Pat, who are you as a leader?
[:I tend to have a lot of loyalty to my people. I have to have people whom I trust, and I give 'em a lot of latitude. Typically, we'll give people quite a lot of latitude as long as they're producing.
It's very important to me to have an objective what's my target? What do I gotta accomplish this year over the next five years? So, for me, to do that, I gotta have a plan. I got to have to have a path. And when I draw that path up, I do it with the people that work with me. That's very important. It's not, here's my plan, here's what you're gonna need to go do today. And then, we measure along the way. Are we ahead? Are we behind? And if you're getting behind, where do you need help?
I have certain rules. I never dress a person down publicly. If I have an issue with someone, it's always in private. I always tell people a bad decision is better than no decision 'cause at least we learn something. I acknowledge, and to an extent almost encourage some level of mistakes, because people learn from mistakes. Just don't sink the ship while you're at it. But if you don't have that environment, people won't take risks.
And if you really wanna move ahead — in our business in particular, which is a very tough business — you have to have people who are willing to stick their necks out, and they'll do that if they know you have their back. They won't do it if they don't think you do or if they know you don't.
So, I try to create that type of an environment where people feel comfortable. The people that are on my team, they don't have to necessarily love each other, but they have to treat each other with dignity and respect. They have to respect each other's work. They have to be loyal to each other, relative to the work that gets done. And that tends to work for me very well.
Fortunately, I have a very good staff who does get along really well. And over time, I continue to refine that, and it's worked really well for us.
[:[00:04:34] Pat D'Eramo: I think I have that tendency, as far as an individual, I've never been a person who likes to be told what to do, and therefore I tend not to tell people what to do. I tend to try to encourage them and coach them in a direction. I'm not talking about just work, but just in general. So, I was fortunate that when I was hired out of the university, I started with Saturn or what used to be called Saturn.
[:[00:05:00] Pat D'Eramo: And it was a very difficult place to work 'cause it had a very unique contract. But the other part of it was General Motors really put some provocative people in the organization there to try to change the environment of how work got done. And so, they sent a bunch of people out before they formed the company and said, "Study what works."
So, they did everything from NUMMI, which was the Toyota-GM joint venture at the time, to many non-automotive companies based on their success. And then, they came back — and this was a team of both union and management people — and created a 'this is what we should do' type of company.
And of course, GM announced that, started building a plant, and I just happened to be graduating at that time. And I was really fortunate when I came out, I was an engineer by degree, but apparently I wasn't a very good one because they put me in management as soon as there was an opportunity, in what would be considered a supervisory role.
But in that interim, while I was an engineer and working toward the operation, I would say a guy took me under his wing. He decided I'm gonna make you successful, and coached me — and he was a really good coach, he was a great leader. All the collaborative types of things that you want people to use with you, he used. He could be really tough on people when the time came and tough on situations, but he did things right.
[:[00:06:28] Pat D'Eramo: And so, that was really good for me to see and experience. And there were a number of people in that organization, at that time, like that. They were recruited specifically because they had this style. So, there was a lot of that. And I'm not gonna say everybody by any means, 'cause the majority of people all came from just what you said, a command and control environment. But I was really lucky, I was lucky with him.
I had two different women who were my boss at Saturn as well at that timeframe, but in different phases along the way, who are also very much like that. And then, one other gentleman who was very similar as well. I really got exposed to nothing but that.
But I experienced all the tough sides too. I had to deal directly with the union, and it was called Consensus Decision Making. And to this day, no one can explain to me what that really means, and which is why it didn't work.
But it was really — you had to learn how to negotiate with everything you did. You wanted to do anything, the union had to agree. And they had smart people in there, too, right? So, you had to learn to negotiate, and you had to appreciate what they had to deal with. They had to get elected, so certain decisions were tough or an impossible burden to make. You had to find ways to help them be successful while you got what you wanted or needed. That taught me at a very young age, right outta school. That was probably the best exposure I could have had to get me on this track.
[:[00:08:06] Pat D'Eramo: 40, almost.
[:[00:08:34] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah. I have a tendency — and some would even accuse me, on occasion, maybe having too much empathy sometimes — to really try to put myself in people's shoes. And the good news is, when somebody's really struggling and has a problem, after over 40 years, I've had that problem at some point, and I know how I was treated, sometimes it was good, sometimes not so good, and I know how I would respond in that same situation. And over, over my career, we've had some major issues that came up because some people make mistakes. Okay? There's a school of thought where — and I've been challenged — why don't you fire that person? They made this huge mistake that cost us of dollars. And I say, " Prior to this mistake, that person was a rock star. But suddenly they make a mistake, and that's what we're gonna do?"
"That's what I would do," Somebody would say. And then I say, "Why would I take a person who's learned the most valuable lesson that they could possibly learn — know what not to do next time, and what to do next time correctly to never make a mistake like that again, and give them to a competitor? Why would I do that? We have a stronger person." And I've got many examples of those, and they are some of our strongest leaders in their organizations, including Martinrea.
[:[00:10:02] Pat D'Eramo: And you're exactly right. And I was judged. There's no doubt in my mind, but you just gotta say, I'm gonna do what's right. I'm gonna do what I know is best from my experience. And I had to tell some people, "It's not your decision, it's my decision. And that's what we're gonna do."
And retrospectively, I would do it again. You have to be able to understand that people are gonna talk around the water cooler about you when they don't agree with your decision, but it's not just the way you treat people, it's in many things that you do right? And you just gotta accept that, as long as you're moving your organization forward toward that objective that I talked about earlier.
And I look at turnover, when I look at people who specifically have worked for me over the years, turnover's very low. And when they do go, there are exceptions, there are ones that have been asked to leave many times, that happens. I shouldn't say it many times, but it happens. But the ones who actually said, "Hey, I've got something else." And that happens on occasion. And I can say, every time it's happened to me, I said to the person, "I would go too if I were you. It's a better opportunity than you have here right now." And so, I feel really good about that. I feel okay, it's all right.
[:I think there are a lot of leaders out there who feel that because of the command-and-control model we've had in this industry, they've got to be the tough guy and show that they're aggressive.
You talked about respect. They've got to berate people in meetings because that's how we do things in the automotive industry. If you don't behave that way, you are soft, meek, and mild, and you have no business being a leader in the auto industry. That certainly was the model that we used to have.
So, you've embraced a much more authentic leadership style. How do you continue to perpetuate that within your organization? Because you must have people coming in that think more around a command and control.
[:So, for every person who said, in this case, I think you should have gotten that taken care of. And there were a lot more that sat around and said, "Oh, if I make a mistake, he's gonna have my back. He's gonna he's gonna give me a chance. So, I'm not gonna be afraid to make a mistake."
[:[00:13:20] Pat D'Eramo: That's right.
[:[00:13:43] Pat D'Eramo: The reality is firing someone is the easy way out. That's the easy way out. Now, there are times if somebody who just doesn't work in your culture — I've had that condition. People who won't get on board with the strategy. Okay? And then, in my way past, I've had people who broke the law. And those three reasons to me are good reasons.
[:[00:14:06] Pat D'Eramo: The majority of other people you can get there as long as they're at the position where they're working for the CEO or someone who's running a group. They didn't get there by luck. They got there because they work hard and they're capable. So, now you can take that
[:[00:14:36] Pat D'Eramo: Capability and refine it. And honestly, it's a heck of a lot better to go to work when people know you're trying to have a golden rule culture and you can show it by your actions, not just by words. And I think that Martinrea has really been able to work hard on that, and I think it's shown itself, especially in the last number of years, through these very difficult times.
[:[00:15:12] Pat D'Eramo: It's our first principle. And it's to treat people with dignity and respect, or the golden rule. We use both terms. Even when we started our DEI activity, we rooted it in that first principle. So, when the backlash came with all the we're not gonna do DEI anymore, we didn't even change one thing because the base was the same. It's about treating people, it's about treating people with respect, and it works.
That one is very important, and we have many others. And in our last one, we actually modified too, with the sustainability, environment, and changed it to "Leave it better." And then there's a number of other things in between. My favorite being "Work hard, play hard," which we do some of that, as well.
But yeah, we really take our vision seriously of making people's lives better. We know who we are out there to please, which is our customers, people, suppliers, and environment, and of course, the people who owned our company, which are our stockholders.
So, we understand that these principles — which actually have been around in Martinrea for some time — but you have to have the right environment for them to take root. And they've been able to take root, I think, of the last decade or so. And now, they're really core to how we do things.
[:[00:16:35] Pat D'Eramo: Oh, okay.
[:[00:16:54] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah, and it starts at our chairman. Our chairman, is, in fact, wrote the 10 principles before I even joined. He calls me his work partner, his work wife, because the two of us have really worked it from both ends of the organization.
And certainly, my staff clearly understands it and emulates it to their ability. And I try to do my best at it is. You know, we're all human beings. We all get mad sometimes. But the ability to stay objective in times like we're having right now is very important. And I'm really proud of the people I work with because they work very hard at not jumping off a cliff and really working the system the way you should.
[:How do you lead through a time of chaos, Pat? Your role as a leader is to bring calm to the chaos, but you have no idea what you're gonna wake up to tomorrow morning. How do you do that?
[:The people in the plants are not, they're working, so I personally visited as many plants as I could. I couldn't get across the border at first, I was just staying in the US. And then, I got into Canada once in a while. And I can get into Mexico once in a while. And so, it was slow getting into the other countries, but leadership had to make an appearance, so the leaders were out and about in their own countries, keeping the spirits up. And that made a difference.
Probably the most pivotal point in inside I'd say our organization from a collaboration level was when we had to start figuring out how to recover costs for inflation and loss. The supplier community had never really done this before. I'd worked for OEMs for 24 years. I'm like, "Why aren't we knocking on the door?" And the first reaction I had from one of our sales guys was, "Are you crazy? We can't go ask for this money."
We were very early in the process. We didn't wait a long time. But what was really cool about it is that we got our commercial people out of our business units, our operations people, our sales people, our lawyers who played a really key role, our SCO leadership, our technical leadership, just key people twice a week started working the process. And pretty soon, it started to work. It started to work very well.
And I think a lot of other suppliers have done similar things, but the majority of our suppliers have not recovered what's been lost. Inflationary difference might be 50%, if you're lucky, you get 80% of it, but there's still a gap. And until new generations of products come, you're not gonna be able to fill that gap.
But here comes the EVs. That was our opportunity. We'll get the EV work. When the EVs pick up, our economy will be back to normal, and we can move on. We all know what happened there. The EVs' lack of sales has only compounded the problem. So, now you've got a supply base out there that hasn't recovered from the inflation, hasn't recovered from the EV investments, which is really hurting some suppliers really bad. Someone all in. But no matter who you are, if you have any EV activity, you've been hurt. Okay? It just depends on what level. So now you've compounded that.
And now the tariffs hit. Okay? So, what do you do to lead through that? It's getting everybody in a straight line. This is what we're gonna do. Talking about it every day. Are we ahead? Are we behind? Where's our weak point? Who's not on board? What do we gotta do? Who do we have to escalate to? What do you need me, as the CEO, to do? Whatever it is.
And we, I would say, as an organization, are stronger now internally and our ability to take something from A to B than we ever have been before. So, out of this crisis, and the two: the pandemic and the supply chain, and then inflation and then the EV. We've actually taken advantage of it in some respects and become much stronger. But you gotta get a tailwind at some point. Yeah. And just when it's time to get a tailwind here comes the tariffs.
So, we were on day one, and a lot of frustrated people, obviously, at work. I was on the phone all morning, you go around, you slap backs, you kiss babies, you gotta say, "Hey, this is just one more thing we gotta fight through."
"We're gonna be number one by:And they don't think quarter to quarter, they think long term, they did get tremendous state support. You talked about that in one of your in one of your podcasts, but it's significant, it's not just a little — 'cause I worked with a lot of Chinese companies over the years — it's a lot.
And so, when the North American continent and the Europeans as well need to be sitting down saying, "What do we have to do to literally catch up?" You have to get together. You gotta use the USMCA, you gotta focus on technology, you gotta open up material supply chains. You gotta figure out how to get rid of the borders — and I'm not talking about people crossing the border, of course — but fluid borders for trafficking parts back and forth across the border because we have many assemblies. They'll go back two, three times, maybe four.
And you want it to be like going across state lines, not like going across, country lines in the case of the business. So, you wanna strengthen the North American business so it can compete. And that won't happen in the USMCA in and of itself. It's gonna take tremendous investment.
And so, if you said, "Okay, how do we catch up with China?" To me, it's three steps. First step is — and I know this is controversial — but you do have to inhibit their ability to come to North America initially to give you time. Yeah. Then the government has to participate. That's how the Chinese did it. And I don't think we should do it like they did it, but our government needs to quit fighting about the border and tariffs and take the money that's being wasted and ask for investment.
You may have heard this when we were at the MEMA conference. In my view, we cannot build a production car in the United States right now. You can't do it. If it was designed here, and you went out to the supply base and said, "We want you to buy all your tools here." You can't do it. There's no capacity. And so, if you want to create that capacity, you need investment. And so, the government's gonna have to create an environment to make investment easy, to help with the investment, and move it along.
And help with things like if you want to have EVs and you want to have your own material, you gotta mine it here. You gotta refine it here. Light speed to develop a mine right now is 10 to 15 years. That's not gonna get you there. It's gonna have to be a lot of changes. So, quit wasting time like we are today, and start figuring out how we're gonna get back up on our feet because we're getting creamed.
But you can't think about tomorrow, you gotta think about the day after that, the day after that, and where do you wanna be in 10 years? What do you wanna be in 15 years? You gotta work the plan. So, this one's tough. The tariff things compounding all these other issues is really difficult, because everybody's what the hell?
And after all this, now, when we need you the most, leadership in our governments, you're all gonna get ready to fight. One's shot across the bow. Now, you guys and the other two countries are gonna shoot across the bow, and you're gonna waste everybody's time.
We need you to allow us to do what we know to do. Because if you set targets in front of this industry, and you've seen it for years, you don't need to tell the OEMs what to build. You need to tell the OEMs what they need to do, what targets they need to reach, and they know what to build.
[:[00:25:57] Pat D'Eramo: And right now, they don't know what to build. They really don't know what to do in some ways. So, we're waiting on the new portfolio. The RFQ is slow because no one wants to invest in another vehicle till they know what it should be. It's a mess, and we need support, and we're not getting that. Yeah. And these tariffs are just making it worse.
[:[00:26:24] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah.
[:[00:26:49] Pat D'Eramo: US can't do it alone.. Okay? You need, at a bare minimum, you need resources, and Canada is a gold mine, literally. Okay? And they've got really good people, really good technical people. And then, in Mexico, you know, where it used to be you had to go down there and train everybody.
[:[00:27:09] Pat D'Eramo: Now, we're bringing 'em in to help train our people because we have such a gap in skill. You need all three countries, and if you get all three countries with one plan — and the government's cooperating instead of rearranging the chairs on the Titanic — we can make things happen very quickly.
But it's gonna have to have that type of government support, and they gotta get out of our way. And yeah, you're right. In the long run, tariffs or inhibiting the Chinese from coming in over a long period of time never works. Nothing ever like that works.
[:[00:27:42] Pat D'Eramo: But because they've been at it for such a long time, because they've had state support, which is not the North American way, then we've gotta figure out how to play ball differently, and we have to have some time to do that.
Because car programs take a long time. The development of technologies takes a long time. But there's no better place in the world than North America when it comes to innovation. So, like I said, get out of the way and let us work.
[:[00:28:19] Pat D'Eramo: That's why I gotta let people take risks. You gotta take risks with them.
[:[00:28:34] Pat D'Eramo: So, it's funny, I read all of it, and then I read it again, and I started circling words and lines that I liked in all of 21 of them, honestly. And I said, "Okay, I can't pick 21." So, I came down to five: coaching, long-term vision, understanding where you want to go, long-term planning, trust, and, of course, those are the big ones, but of course, today, you have to include resilience.
[:[00:29:03] Pat D'Eramo: It's such a big part of our existence these days. And when you look at where those overlap versus what I told you earlier as far as my personal leadership style, those overlap the most with the way I like to manage and lead, and the way I like to be led.
When I went through the hiring process at Martinrea, they put me through a whole bunch of testing, the recruiters. And funny thing is that our chairman did the same thing. He says, "Hey, I'm gonna do that too just to see how we line up." And I can't remember how many traits there were. Let's say there were 16 traits; we lined up exactly the same on 15.
[:[00:29:46] Pat D'Eramo: And the one we didn't was process. I'm a very process-oriented
[:[00:29:50] Pat D'Eramo: And he's not.
[:[00:29:52] Pat D'Eramo: And that's where we butt heads on the occasion once in a while. But it also creates a lot of new things and creativity within the organization. So, we're very much aligned, which has really helped us move things along.
So, if I had to pick one.. It's really tough.
[:[00:30:10] Pat D'Eramo: Maybe supporting and coaching.
[:[00:30:16] Pat D'Eramo: There's things in all the other ones I thought were traits either I'd like to think I have or try to achieve. If I had to boil it down to one, that would be it.
[:[00:30:29] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah.
[:[00:30:35] Pat D'Eramo: ELO.
[:[00:30:38] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah. Growing up, I was big on ELO, Alan Parsons, Steely Dan, and Toto are my bands.
[:[00:30:50] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah. You know what's funny is in 2018, they hadn't been to the US in 30 years, and when they were here the first time or last time I was too young. So, they came to Little Caesars — they've been there twice since, by the way — and I went and saw him with my best friend from high school, who we were both big fans of. After all this time, we finally got to go see ELO, and it was fantastic.
[:[00:31:14] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah.
[:[00:31:23] Pat D'Eramo: My wife and I love going to movies, we just don't get to 'em as often because everything's on TV now.
[:[00:31:30] Pat D'Eramo: And it's simpler. Now, we probably like to watch action series.
[:[00:31:35] Pat D'Eramo: Like Reacher.
[:[00:31:37] Pat D'Eramo: Big Reacher fan.
[:[00:31:38] Pat D'Eramo: And I like Landman. I don't know if you've seen Landman.
[:[00:31:43] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah. Tulsa King, we're a big fan.
[:[00:31:48] Pat D'Eramo: That's one of the best. That's one of the best. And I'm a big sci-fi fan, and my wife's not as much. She'll watch it with me, but I'm a big sci-fi fan, so I watch all the Star Treks and that kind of thing too.
[:[00:32:01] Pat D'Eramo: The last book I read that was, I would say.
[:[00:32:08] Pat D'Eramo: I'm still reading yours. That was a science fiction book called Terran Menace. Oh yeah, just finished that. And then, probably the best book I've ever read was Why Nations Fail. You know, when it comes to a more of a workbook, if you will, I think that's a fantastic book.
Favorite book of all time is probably the Dark Tower that Stephen King wrote, but you know, so I don't read as much as I'd like to, but I do listen a lot because I'm driving a lot. I live in Tennessee half-time. I live in Michigan part-time. In Toronto, a lot. So, when I'm driving, especially on a weekend, I'll listen to a book.
[:[00:32:50] Pat D'Eramo: When I'm with my wife, we always listen to mysteries like the Dateline type of things.
[:[00:32:55] Pat D'Eramo: And so forth. And I haven't listened to a lot. I've listened to yours.
[:[00:33:00] Pat D'Eramo: So, I've enjoyed those. But I don't listen to a lot of podcasts unless I'm with her for some reason. I tend to listen to a book or I'm on the phone. If it's during the week, I'm on the phone the whole time. That kind of rounds me out a little bit.
[:[00:33:17] Pat D'Eramo: Yeah, I enjoyed it. I really appreciate you having me on the show.
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